Jon
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Post by Jon on Jul 26, 2012 22:16:44 GMT
You've got to laugh really - or you'd cry.
Here we have a whingefest about the club not spending out on players when we have just lashed out £70k on young Billy Bodin.
And then it turns into a whingefest about the board being secretive and totalitarian. It's only because the Chairman has openly, honestly and with no need to do so revealed to us that a £50k gift paid part of the Bodin fee that people are getting their knickers in a twist.
That's brought up the old cry of "where has all the money gone then?"
I bet Simon Baker wishes he'd kept his gob shut and been a bit more secretive and less open.
Running a professional football club in Torquay never has been and never will be a money maker.
There will be times of windfalls (tranfer fees, cup runs) and there will be times when there are no windfalls.
When there are no windfalls we will lose a shed load of money unless we absolutely pare every aspect of the running of the club down to the bone. That is an option - but not an attractive one.
I note some people have in the past come up with the proposal we should budget to break even assuming no windfalls at all. Let's see the workings then.
The best you could hope for would be a board that would look to break even across the economic cycle - which would mean the board stumping up extra in the "no windfall" seasons as an advance against the "windfall" seasons.
That is exactly what we have - and how lucky we are to have it. But you still have the people who think the "extra" in a good year is there to be blown and the deficit in the bad years will just go away.
The current board initially stumped up £900,000 between them - that was share capital not repayable loans. When Colin Lee's stewardship leaked cash, they stumped up a further £684,500 between them. This was originally loaned but later converted into share capital in the holding company so not repayable.
Doesn't the stumping up of £1,584,500 that has no prospect of repayment just show a little commitment and goodwill?
If despite having to pump in nearly double what was initially agreed, more money has had to be pumped in by way of loans to smooth the "economic cycle", then should there not be a little gratitude that somebody did actually put up the cash to keep the club going until the next windfall?
Actually, there is a huge assumption being made by some on here that money has actually gone to repay director loans. We do not know for one second whether that is the case or not.
Personally, I would not have a problem at all if it has - but don't jump to conclusions that it has.
I'm sure it's not really the writer's intention, but the words of jamesb come over to me as a bit like the spoiled brat. Sod what you've done for me in the past, you have merely stoked my expectation that you will throw even more money at me in the future.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Jul 26, 2012 22:51:57 GMT
Running a professional football club in Torquay never has been and never will be a money maker Why not? I've seen this time and again here - "we'll never succeed because people aren't interested, so we should stick to being conservative" To play devil's advocate for a moment - morally right or not, surely going down in a blaze of glory would catch people's attention far more than plodding along hoping to unearth a few gems every now and then without spending much money The definition of insanity is said to be doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Surely that makes Torquay United insane for expecting people to suddenly be interested despite being run in the same conservative way year after year I bet more people will turn up to watch Rotherham this year, and not just because of the new stadium. Even if Project Fatboy fails, it will at least get the people of the town interested in the football club again When you start following a football club, or football generally, everything is exciting because the possibilities seem limitless. 15 years on for me, I now look at the club and think "yeah, this is going to go one of only two or three ways. Not much will happen, we might do well, but we might be rubbish." The only year that didn't fit this pattern was the Roberts year, because it was genuinely extraordinary to follow - terrible and yet strangely captivating. We probably got more headlines that year than when we got promoted The rest of the time, it's like waiting for the Queen to do something other than wave and say nice things. Where's the sense of achievement in having survived another year? Is that what people really want of this football club? It feels especially pointless considering every club that has gone under has phoenixed anyway, and Chester and Halifax will probably re-emerge stronger than ever. Surely it would be more exciting if we went mad, bought loads of players, made a bid for promotion, failed, went into administration, got saved and re-emerged stronger in time for another spending spree. Works for Bournemouth, anyway... As I said, devil's advocate. To a certain extent
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jul 26, 2012 23:31:40 GMT
I've seen this time and again here - "we'll never succeed because people aren't interested, so we should stick to being conservative" To play devil's advocate for a moment - morally right or not, surely going down in a blaze of glory would catch people's attention far more than plodding along So ploughing in £1.7m in non-returnable share capital plus a load more in loans is being "conservative" is it? How much to do you want to be given for you to class it as "progressive"? I strongly disagree with your suggestion of conning local traders out of money by contracting to take services from them that we could not pay for. It would genuinely sicken me if we did that - far more than relegation would sicken me. It's ironic that there is a debate on a separate thread about Supporters' Trusts. What Trusts should definitely do (although I don't understand why they can't have social events as well) is to keep an eye on the governance of the club and to try to ensure that the club IS run on a sustainable basis. You are keen to ensure that the club is NOT run on a sustainable basis. I suppose that also brings up the whole issue of "supporter representation". Suppose I was the "fans' representative" on the board. Suppose your argument held sway with the majority in the Trust/Club/whatever - we should spend money in the hope of success, with a back up plan of welching on debt. I would be morally obliged to strongly encourage the board to run the club in an unsustainable way - hopefully they'd ignore me. I don't think "representing" anyone but myself is something I could do.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 27, 2012 7:12:52 GMT
I have no problem with the players leaving, and I think we've got good money for all of them. But, as I said in the other thread, it seems to me that the club may be resting on its laurels:
- I think Bodin has been wrongly built up into some sort of messianic saviour figure - while I have acknowledged that we missed him after he left, I was still not overly enamoured with him
- The reason why we missed him after he left is because we replaced him with Jarvis, and I think that's something worth bearing in mind about him
- Easton is a back-up for Lathrope or Mansell, or if he isn't, it's a massive risk, because he's 33 and played just 3 games last year
- Downes is a risk because of his injury history - finding out about the third knee injury when he was at Rovers, which was avoided by the club in its statements, has made me suspicious
- We are down one defender because Ling has effectively chosen to replace a centre-back and LRT with the same player, and Cruise is another with past fitness issues
- And there's a big hole in midfield which needs to be filled by a creative player, and I don't think Morris can do this (see Port Vale away) and Craig is unproven - if he's so good, why did he slip through the net, and why didn't Ling pick him last year? So we've invested in the playing squad which is what you are asking, but you don't like the players we've invested in. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? As I've said, for me the squad should be the priority, because it's the squad that decides whether we win or lose, and that's what gets people paying at the turnstiles. If the aim is promotion for this season, the first box to tick is assembling a squad capable of promotion Martin Ling, a lot more qualified than me or anyone else on this Forum (I would suggest) believes he's ticked the first box: he's assembled a squad capable of promotion. You don't agree. Let's see how the season pans out.
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Post by Budleigh on Jul 27, 2012 7:34:15 GMT
I think we are seeing the 'Football Manager'; 'Twitter'; 'Fans Forum' generation beginning to show its head. Instant gratification... Put the data into a computer and get the result instantly for all to see.
The board of directors of Plainmoor Ltd have put their money where their mouths are and for simple reasoning. Firstly to save the club; then get it on a sound footing; then build some firm foundations and then move forward. It's not instant gratification but it's the way long-term success is achieved.
What a shame that a certain section of the clubs support seem intent on seeing conspiracies that don't exist, that insinuate there may be financial skullduggery where clearly there is none, who berate the clubs owners and management for bringing on players who are then sold for a profit enabling the infrastructure of Torquay United to move another step closer to being the set-up we all hope will give us a sustainable, worry-free future.
Many people subscribed to the theory that having reached the play-offs in 2011 the club then let the core of the team follow Buckle to Bristol (which in itself was an overblown sentiment) and that having had this 'heart' ripped away Torquay United would struggle the following season. But we reached the play-offs again. Now we are getting the same story; 'the heart has been taken away from the team, the core of a successful United has been allowed to leave'.
Think of this... If the players that have gone were so influential and important to the success of the club, how is it that we are still in the bottom tier?
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Post by bobbytanz on Jul 27, 2012 7:41:41 GMT
Well said both Budleigh and Jon
Can the moaners and whingers that no doubt are brilliant at Football based PC games just give it a rest. Yes discussionand difference of a opinion is a good thing but sometimes the same old same old gets tedious ...............
You are either a supporter and follower of the club, through thick and thin, or not !!!!
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Jul 27, 2012 9:47:10 GMT
It's ironic that there is a debate on a separate thread about Supporters' Trusts. What Trusts should definitely do (although I don't understand why they can't have social events as well) is to keep an eye on the governance of the club and to try to ensure that the club IS run on a sustainable basis. They can have social events as well within Supporters Trust model. Basically, they can do everything a Supporters Club can do and more, should they so desire.
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petef
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Post by petef on Jul 27, 2012 11:13:49 GMT
Its good to see sensible and open debate about this topic. It rears its head every so often and just demonstrates that some view running the finances of football club as "black and white". To many supporters at "all" football clubs money in from sales of players equals a large percentage out for replacements. I would imagine that the likes of Portsmouth and Pllymouth supporters etc etc have now swung the other way and have a far greater understanding of just how precarious club finaces can be. Some have the intelligence to listen and understand the tightrope we walk and some will not the latter usually abandoning the club in the bad times. Sometimes it can appear that we are standing still or going backwards, we all thought this at this point last term and look how it turned out. In the last three or four seasons the club has made huge progress off the pitch which I am pleased to say is continuing with a great deal of success on it. A massive achievement for a club of our stature in a very poor economic climate.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Jul 27, 2012 11:18:53 GMT
So we've invested in the playing squad which is what you are asking, but you don't like the players we've invested in. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? How is it investing in the playing squad if it's just replacing what we had before (for less money)? As I said, I'm all for long term stability, but at the same time, we can't lose sight of here and now. Even Arsenal, the arch-conservative club of the top flight in recent years, have given up on not spending any money this summer, because it wasn't winning them anything, and not winning anything risked losing fans and thus money The question is do we want this club to be successful or do we want this club to survive? Either is a totally valid viewpoint, but one is a far less enticing prospect to outsiders than the other. As many people have said in the past here, part of this club's problem is that it just doesn't sell itself very well, and that can be interpreted just as much as the way playing squads are assembled as putting posters up and getting out into the schools I don't think it is by chance that many clubs in the Football League have reached the conclusion that the easiest way to be successful is to spent beyond their means and if it goes wrong have the courts and the administrators to bail them out - if the authorities are effectively refusing to punish the clubs long term for breaking the rules, then what is the incentives not to break the rules? Surely long term goes out of the window providing the clubs know they are going to be saved whatever happens - and even if they aren't, they can reform a couple of leagues further down and be back up to a reasonable level within a short space of time. If Portsmouth go under in a few weeks, they will phoenix and they'll be back in the FL in a few years, probably with a much better setup than what they had before. Middlesbrough didn't even need to lose their league place to gain that benefit We seem to be stubbornly playing to the rules in the face of everyone else doing the opposite, which is admirable, but I don't think it's compatible with the way the league has gone. I may have said this in the past, but either we have to conform to what everyone else in the Football League is doing, or we allow ourselves to be relegated (effectively) and take up a place in non-league football which would be more suited to the way the club is run and the size of the following. In any case, with such a strong Conference (with teams that will get out of their eventually - the likes of Luton, Wrexham, Grimsby and so on), it's probably only a matter of time before the latter happens anyway - it has caught up with Macclesfield and Hereford now, the likes of Barnet and Accrington will be next, and then after that it could be us. And we're not going to get out in a hurry this time I am terribly torn over this because I don't want to see the club run into trouble or screw over local businesses or anything like that, but at the same time I think it is important that the club is successful. Football clubs may play a role in the community, but ultimately they were formed to win as well, and I would suspect that deep down the vast majority of fans want to see the club winning as well. I think that's why so many football fans are happy to go along with big spending until the moment they actually hit trouble (see Cardiff) I think the Football League has got to the point where you have to make a choice between a fair path or a successful path. It is a very sad state of affairs in English football. In an ideal world every club would be run like ours. Unfortunately at the moment clubs are being rewarded for recklessness, and I don't see that changing any time soon
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Post by register on Jul 27, 2012 13:12:34 GMT
Well said both Budleigh and Jon Can the moaners and whingers that no doubt are brilliant at Football based PC games just give it a rest. Yes discussionand difference of a opinion is a good thing but sometimes the same old same old gets tedious ............... You are either a supporter and follower of the club, through thick and thin, or not !!!! Yes, could all you moaners and whingers stop doing what your doing...which I think is moaning and whinging! What sort of site would this site be if everyone had a different opinion...oh yes ok, it makes it a lot more interesting, but stop what you're doing anyway! Oh, and one more thing...if you don't support this club through thick and thin you're very bad people!
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Post by Budleigh on Jul 27, 2012 13:44:30 GMT
If Torquay United were to be seen to be breaking the rules then all credibility goes out the window, not just for the football club but for the local business men/women that are involved in its running.
Success should never be achieved through cheating whatever the rest are doing.
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Post by stuartB on Jul 27, 2012 19:24:16 GMT
Well said both Budleigh and Jon Can the moaners and whingers that no doubt are brilliant at Football based PC games just give it a rest. Yes discussionand difference of a opinion is a good thing but sometimes the same old same old gets tedious ............... You are either a supporter and follower of the club, through thick and thin, or not !!!! Yes, could all you moaners and whingers stop doing what your doing...which I think is moaning and whinging! What sort of site would this site be if everyone had a different opinion...oh yes ok, it makes it a lot more interesting, but stop what you're doing anyway! Oh, and one more thing...if you don't support this club through thick and thin you're very bad people! True Register. If certain people weren't moaning and then others responding, then who else would post?? It's been far too quiet lately. Long live debate
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jul 29, 2012 22:42:16 GMT
The question is do we want this club to be successful or do we want this club to survive? Both obviously. If we can only have one, the latter. Unfortunately at the moment clubs are being rewarded for recklessness, and I don't see that changing any time soon They are but there is a gradual move towards a recognition that not paying your way is cheating and cheats should not be rewarded as Boston and Chesterfield (sorry wildebeeste!) have been in the past. The Conference has been ahead of the Football League in this and has been mocked for its efforts in the past when teams have finished 22nd or 23rd and stayed up. The point is that it shouldn't be a case of the bottom 4 (or 2 in League2) going down, but the top 20 (or 22) who played WITHIN THE RULES staying up. Hereford was the 22nd best club to pay its dues last season, so they should have stayed up with Barnet and Argyle going down. What has happened to Rangers a massive advance for financial play - and well done to the Scottish clubs for having the guts to ensure that justice prevailed in the face of some pretty fierce bribery and blackmail. Maybe that will give the Football league the strength to do the right thing in future. I don't want TUFC to descend to the moral standards of Exeter City and Plymouth Argyle. I want the game as a whole to raise its moral standards to those of TUFC.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Jul 30, 2012 11:08:32 GMT
Portsmouth will be the key case, if you ask me. If they're allowed to survive again, then there's no hope for change any time soon
The best league for financial regulation has been the Welsh Premier League, first kicking out Rhyl despite them being one of the most successful clubs in the league, and this year kicking out Neath leading to their liquidation
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