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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 10:28:25 GMT
Completely agree with Alpine Joe's thoughts on last night's game btw.
I've always had a lot of time for Warnock, mostly because of his connections with us, but his reported post-match comments are an absolute disgrace.
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Post by stefano on Oct 20, 2012 11:23:40 GMT
You're not making sense, Dave. You say you're talking about events that happened this week, in this country. Which are those then? John Terry racially abused Anton Ferdinand months ago. The only other related talking point involving "large groups of people" this week occurred in Serbia, but you say uou're not talking about that. So how does calling out racists cause episodes like the John Terry affair? Nothing new there then Lambie on the TFF  In the report I read and put a link up to the word racism was used to describe the chants shouted out. I stand by what I have said about people now being afraid to air their thoughts and views in public due to the fear of labels being put on them.... I shouldn't worry about him Dave. It is a little sad that we have people in this country who get themselves so worked up in a frenzy that their only outlet is to go on a football forum and pontificate about politics and prejudice. He seems to take delight in setting himself up as the judge of what remarks are racist, homophobic, or discriminatory in any other way. A glance back through his posts would tend to suggest that there is some hypocrisy about him. Whilst denigrating people who put labels on people because of amongst other things their ethnic origin, sexual preference, or religious beliefs (and he is not wrong in holding that view), he is more than happy to put a label on over 150,000 citizens of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland because of their occupation. Strangely an occupation that is amongst the most inclusive in the World. During my time in that occupation I was once commended by a Judge for the rescue of an Iranian woman and her two young Iranian children from their burning house beore the arrival of the fire brigade, and then going on to trace and arrest the arsonist. No sign of racial bigotry there; As a young sergeant in Derbyshire in the mid-1980's we shared out food from our van with striking miners as we had too much. No sign of the Nazi boot boys there; I am pleased to say in 30 years despite many incidents of severe provocation and working for a time in Belfast at the height of 'The Troubles' I managed to control my emotions (strangely people in that profession do have the same emotions as other folk) and never once hit anybody. I did though receive a fractured skull, a fractured cheek bone, and a dislocated thumb, in separate incidents while making lawful arrests. Yet I am categorised by him as being in a group that are "all the same". His post this morning that he is happy to use physical violence against people with opposing views to himself is a worrying indictment but in some ways says it all. No chance of the Nobel Peace Prize heading South of the river this year!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 11:36:01 GMT
I agree with Alpine Joe as well, apart from the bit about social workers, who have better things to do with their time than pay visits to football hooligans. Certainly in my Social Services workplace, the staff are too busy rescuing children from abuse, fighting for disabled people's rights and wiping the arses of those who can't manage it themselves to pay visits to thick football hooligans. That's a job for the Boys in Blue.
After going through a relatively civilised phase it seems that football grounds are again being seen by some as a place to go along to and behave in the most offensive manner that they can get away with. Unfortunately for the city of Leeds, their team continues to attract more that its share of such unpleasant people.
My son lived in Leeds for a few years and it was very noticeable that while a lot of young men wore football shirts around town they were usually those of teams like Barcelona and Juventus rather than Leeds United. Sports fans who come from Leeds, when they wear colours, tend to wear the blue and yellow shirts of the Rhinos Rugby League club. On a match day at Elland Road there would be huge numbers of coaches arriving but most of them would not be full of away supporters but of Leeds United followers from other parts of the country. The obvious conclusion to draw is that the citizens of Leeds tend to identify more with the rugby club than with LUFC while thugs who are attracted by the club's dismal reputation for anti-social behaviour, instead of watching their local sides, travel up the M1 hoping for aggro.
The result is that Elland Road is one of the nastiest grounds to visit in the entire league and that for everyone else a home game against Leeds United is something to dread.
The failure of the rest of the Leeds end at Hillsborough to give up the moron who attacked the goalkeeper, meanwhile, matches my own experience with the racist and his foul-mouthed cronies at Chesterfield. No-one likes them but no-one is prepared to do anything about it, so their behaviour just gets worse and worse as the weeks go by.
Who in their right mind wants to spend £20 or £30 to sit with the kind of people you would normally cross the street to avoid? Not me, for a start. That's why my next league game will not be at Chesterfield or Sheffield or Leeds, but at York City when the Gulls play there in November. Should be a pleasant afternoon's football watching spent among friendly and reasonable human beings (although if a certain man in a kilt should turn up.................)
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2012 12:50:18 GMT
I was thinking about how easy it is to just try and put labels on people and is that done using so called logic? you know what I mean, because you might hold one viewpoint, it follows on that you must be that or this?
I remembered a good old Jethro joke that I used so many times in the days when I was an entertainer( cleaned up mind you for the hotel guests) and will put up this clip of the joke. It is as he tells it so I will say sorry in advance if it offends anyone as that is not the intention, but only to show how logic does not always work.
Right off to watch a local game, good luck to the lads this afternoon.
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 18:24:41 GMT
Thanks for that, Stefano, I hope it proved cathartic.
I'd commend you for your acts of bravery too. Even I'd have to accept that police officers perform socially useful functions when they're not complying with orders to protect the interests of capital and state.
As the state's hired help during the 1980s I'm sure those striking miners were pleased to see you had too much food to eat. I'm not sure I'd have been that hungry though.
You're right to suggest that I am not a pacifist. I mean, it's not like people can rely on the Old Bill is it? Those reports and statements won't write themselves after all...
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 21, 2012 9:54:00 GMT
Thanks for that, Stefano, I hope it proved cathartic. I'd commend you for your acts of bravery too. Even I'd have to accept that police officers perform socially useful functions when they're not complying with orders to protect the interests of capital and state. As the state's hired help during the 1980s I'm sure those striking miners were pleased to see you had too much food to eat. I'm not sure I'd have been that hungry though. You're right to suggest that I am not a pacifist. I mean, it's not like people can rely on the Old Bill is it? Those reports and statements won't write themselves after all... I have enjoyed many a good old argument with you Lambie here on the TFF. So many times after we both have exchanged our viewpoints, we discovered we were not that far away from what we both believed. I do not think that is going to be the case as far as your last post on this thread is concerned no matter how long we debate it, or how many times we might share our thoughts and views. The world is not perfect and no one has ever said our police force is, many big mistakes have been made and I’m sure others will be made in the future, but I would rather have a police force than people like you walking the streets wanting to take the law into your own hands. So your answer is VIOLENCE is it? Bash anyone who holds a view you think they have no right too? Very sad if that is the case because I happen to believe that using VIOLENCE never solves anything and if you do use it, what sort of person does that make you? A people’s champion? Someone to be looked up too? Or someone who’s only solution to anything is to knock the shit out of someone. You might get away with if you are 6 foot 4 inches tall, but one thing I learned in the Navy was there is always someone bigger than you (not hard in my case lol) Why do some people have hatred for others? Why are some people seen as racists? There are many reasons and it’s those that need to be looked at an addressed to try and find the best way forward. You see it all comes down to those who like to stick everyone in a box and stick a label on it, so lets say someone who was from a certain town robbed you, you end up saying all those from that town are bloody crocks. If you were a black family and your son was beaten up and knifed by a white gang, you might end up with racist views towards white people. The point I’m trying to make here for you Lambie is that there is often reasons why people end up holding the views they do. Not everyone has the ability to treat everyone as equal no matter what their colour or where they come from, not everyone is willing to just look at who the person is and judge them only on that. I do wonder if you have had your own personal bad experience with the police, if so it might go someway in explaining your hatred and dislike for them. As I said in my opening line, nothing is perfect and mistakes do get made, but we need a police force in this country. What would you rather have? The army out on the streets? Gun wielding USA style cops on are streets? We know there was a cover up, it’s a disgrace and as stated those who were responsible need to be charged and sentenced. But we do have in this country many good and very brave policemen who put their own lives on the line to protect us all. I would sure hope one was around the corner if I was standing face to face with you young man because you had got it in your head I was some sort of racist. |
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 21, 2012 11:12:05 GMT
I haven't had any personal run-ins with the police, Dave, and I'm sure lots of police officers go home and read stories to their kids and treat their partners very nicely. I've already acknowledged the socially useful functions and acts of bravery performed by individual police officers. My problem is not a personal one with police officers, it's with their wider role. If you'd ever tried to organise an effective picket on a strike, you'll see its police officers who turn up tooled up to protect Mr Capitalist and his henchmen. Sergeant Stefano will no doubt tell us that police officers should be able to "let people go to work", but then he would say that wouldn't he? Police officers have after all chosen their side by choosing a career which forbids them from striking, so it's to be expected they would empathise with their ideological fellows. I am not in favour of vigilantism, nor am I in favour of violence, as you have taken the liberty of suggesting above. I don't know what it's like in sleepy old Paignton, Dave, but you see in London we have a history of racists and fascists insisting on marching through areas and intimidating sections of society. The working class residents of these areas – Jewish, black, white, Asian – have historically opposed this invasion and intimidation of their communities. In the 1930s, thousands of working class people blocked the British Union of Fascist's march down Cable Street. In the 1970s, thousands prevented the neo-fascist National Front marching through Lewisham. And in recent months, residents of Walthamstowe sent the racist EDL packing (aided by trade unionists in the RMT who disrupted their progress), as they attempted to use their intimidatory brand of street politics. Now what would you have told the people of the East End to do in the 1930s when Mosley's Blackshirts attempted to intimidate the Jewish population of East London? Stop inside, shut the curtains and call the police? Stand by the side of the road and clap as they marched past, protected -as they always are - by lines of police? Shake you head and say you don't understand why people can't just get along? Thank God your way of thinking did not prevail in those times. |
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Post by valgull on Oct 21, 2012 19:41:32 GMT
lambethgull, you say "In London we have a history of racists and fascists insisting on marching through areas and intimidating sections of society."
Todat it is trade unionists, and students, and anti- capitalists, and carnivals, and festivals, and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. And police leave is cancelled and the Met attempts to allow a level of free speech while keeping the peace.
And until their recent decision were not doctors also unable to strike? Are they too simply intent on protecting Mr Capitalist and his henchmen?
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 21, 2012 20:37:19 GMT
lambethgull, you say "In London we have a history of racists and fascists insisting on marching through areas and intimidating sections of society." Todat it is trade unionists, and students, and anti- capitalists, and carnivals, and festivals, and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. And police leave is cancelled and the Met attempts to allow a level of free speech while keeping the peace. And until their recent decision were not doctors also unable to strike? Are they too simply intent on protecting Mr Capitalist and his henchmen? Strikes by medical staff are rare in this country, valgull. However, since doctors and nurses don't have responsibility for policing picket lines and public order situations I don't really see what your point is. I don't recnognise an equivalence between fascists intimidating people in their homes and workers exercising their right to freedom of expression in the public square or the withdrawing of their labour. I take it you've enjoyed the things workers have fought for in the past via strike or direct action, including such things as female suffrage, the weekend, the 8 hour day, paid annual leave. You don't assume those things came about by accident do you? The authorities don't "allow" me to have freedom of speech btw; they either take steps to prevent it or they don't. |
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