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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2012 10:20:06 GMT
I'm not getting into the Golden Age vs Reality debate Dave, it's been done to death. I may not have the insights of the Jeremy Vine show or live in the global crimespot that is Paignton, but I maintain that your perception of the present and the past is suspect. You're right, Lambeth, it's been done to death. And, besides, I think we used to have better arguments over that type of thing when I was a nipper. Certainly when I was a teenager anyway. No, come to think of it, there was a good one just a few months ago. There might even be another in a week or two's time. And, here's a question, when did coppers stop cuffing kids around the head? I had a fairly sheltered childhood so never encountered that type of thing myself. I just remember older people bemoaning that punishment wasn't what it used to be. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 7:02:46 GMT
The suspensions dished out to Terry, Hylton and Suarez at least indicate that we live in more enlightened times.
Here's a quiz question: Which 1970s English football star was taped by his interviewer thus:
"I'm not prejudiced but if a coon moved in next door, I'd move, like most white people would. If my daughter came home with a black person, I'd go mad. But I'm only being truthful and normal”.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 7:42:15 GMT
That'll be Tommy Smith of Liverpool.
I'll confess to having to look that up. But I now remember the comment being reported and the excellence of Dave Hill's book about John Barnes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 7:56:02 GMT
Smith also used an interesting variation on "choc ice" as an encouragement to his black team mate, Howard Gayle:
“Howard suffered from a black man's attitude towards the white man. See, everybody thinks whites have an attitude towards blacks. In reality it's blacks who have a problem with the whites".
"I used to call Howard the 'White black person'. Now that is a compliment. It was the only way I could find to describe that I thought he was OK”.
After receiving such a compliment, maybe Howard was justified in having an "attitude towards the white man", eh?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 0:02:56 GMT
It is difficult, Rags. When I challenged the bloke on the train I did what I've done in similar situations in recent years . I did a "risk assessment" and decided it was in my favour. I did likewise with another type of incident on a train between Southampton and Salisbury a year or two back. So I'm not sure if that's brave or actually rather cowardly. When I used to travel back to Exeter after Plainmoor home games I regularly encountered a group of big, boorish pissheads from Teignmouth heading to Exeter for the evening. I'm afraid I never fancied challenging them. One train incident I didn't get involved in with involved a lone foul-mouthed Leeds fan who was travelling between Birmingham and Cheltenham sometime last season (possibly after I'd been to a game at Stourbridge). I don't think I've ever witnessed such offensive, appalling behaviour played out in the name of football. The bloke was seriously out of control. It was a great relief when he got off at Cheltenham. And I'm writing this after an interesting night out at Hillsborough during which, for a few minutes, I was rather apprehensive of what might happen in the streets outside. I can't say I saw the attack on Chris Kirkland with the naked eye. Nor do I think many others did around me as our attention was diverted by the Leeds goal scorer (ex-Sheffield United of course) running in our direction to celebrate. Then we noticed Leeds fans on the pitch which I feared offered potential for widespread disorder. Next the sight of Kirkland on the ground. Then we put two and two together. The evening's first incident was a unpleasant Leeds chant about Dave Jones followed shortly by a couple in praise of their (still apparently) local hero Jimmy Saville. Next came the flare thrown on the pitch, presumably from the nearby Leeds end, after Wednesday scored. Later, midway through the second half, a chant from Wednesday supporters provoked a response from Leeds fans which involved people attempting to storm the sterile area between the two groups. I couldn't make out the chant but I heard discussion that it was to do with the Leeds supporters who were killed in Turkey. After this happened I wondered about the consequences of leaving part of the goal line under-protected as stewards and police switched their attention to the corner. This was where the weakness was exploited after the Leeds equaliser. I didn't see or hear any trouble afterwards and was pleased to eventually catch the 52 up the hill. |
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2012 6:44:37 GMT
The old body clock of mine refuses to ever let me have a lay in even when I'm off work for a week and so I get up make a cup of coffee and check out any posts on the TFF that were made after I went to bed. I read your post Nick and was at a loss to know what you were talking about and my first thought was I was so glad you were able to get home safely after the game. So I have had to do a google search and was then shocked to read the events at Hillsbrough last night www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20012421Such scenes are rare these days, but they can happen and probably always will and it is the side of football we all hate as it not only tarrs the Leeds fans, but all football fans in the eyes of those who do not like football. What we have seen this week in football is that racism is still very much in the game and it is displayed when large groups of people are together where they can do it feeling safe being part of a large group. We have talked about free speech on this forum over the last week and one thing I believe is that we have created in this country a place where such thoughts have never gone away, but are simply driven underground. I think it was DTG who made the point that this created danger in itself and there is I know by just talking to so many people I come across, far more hatred and resentment in this county that is good for it. Another sad day in football and to be honest, I'm glad I will more than likely end up today just watching a game on a local park where it will only be about 22 lads playing a game of football. |
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 7:11:28 GMT
What we have seen this week in football is that racism is still very much in the game and it is displayed when large groups of people are together where they can do it feeling safe being part of a large group. We have talked about free speech on this forum over the last week and one thing I believe is that we have created in this country a place where such thoughts have never gone away, but are simply driven underground. I think it was DTG who made the point that this created danger in itself and there is I know by just talking to so many people I come across, far more hatred and resentment in this county that is good for it. No offence, Dave, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If you think racism has been "driven underground" in places like Serbia, then I suggest you read a book. Jesus ****ing Christ. As for DTG's "freedom of speech" BS, nobody has been "denied freedom of speech". He uttered a racist conspiracy theory, and was called out on it. He then decided to play the victim card, because that was all he had. |
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2012 7:23:44 GMT
What we have seen this week in football is that racism is still very much in the game and it is displayed when large groups of people are together where they can do it feeling safe being part of a large group. We have talked about free speech on this forum over the last week and one thing I believe is that we have created in this country a place where such thoughts have never gone away, but are simply driven underground. I think it was DTG who made the point that this created danger in itself and there is I know by just talking to so many people I come across, far more hatred and resentment in this county that is good for it. No offense, Dave, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If you think racism has been "driven underground" in places like Serbia, then I suggest you read a book. Jesus ****ing Christ. As for DTG's "freedom of speech" BS, nobody has been "denied freedom of speech". He uttered a racist conspiracy theory, and was called out on it. He then decided to play the victim card, because that was all he had. No offense taken Lambie, but I was referring to this country and not Serbia. My reference to DTG was only about the point made about peoples feelings no longer being aired so much in public these days for fear of being called a racist or a bigot etc. Anyone who believes things have really changed are only fooling themselves as far as I'm concerned, As I have said my views are based on listening to others and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, its just the opinion I have formed. |
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 7:31:39 GMT
No offense taken Lambie, but I was referring to this country and not Serbia. My reference to DTG was only about the point made about peoples feelings no longer being aired so much in public these days for fear of being called a racist or a bigot etc. You do realise that's the defence every racist, bigot and scumbag resorts to when they are challenged, don't you? |
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2012 7:47:13 GMT
No offense taken Lambie, but I was referring to this country and not Serbia. My reference to DTG was only about the point made about peoples feelings no longer being aired so much in public these days for fear of being called a racist or a bigot etc. You do realise that's the defence every racist, bigot and scumbag resorts to when they are challenged, don't you? Not being a racist myself Lambie, I will have to take your word on that. All I know I once lived in a world where certain things could be said that these days have a racist label put on them. You won't change peoples thoughts and views by sticking labels on them or creating a world where they no longer speak their views out loud in fear of simply have such a label stuck on them.Education is the only way forward and good open dialog. |
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 8:00:49 GMT
You're not making sense, Dave.
You say you're talking about events that happened this week, in this country. Which are those then? John Terry racially abused Anton Ferdinand months ago.
The only other related talking point involving "large groups of people" this week occurred in Serbia, but you say uou're not talking about that.
So how does calling out racists cause episodes like the John Terry affair?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 8:34:34 GMT
The most important thing for the forum of course is that Barton made it safely to his No.52 bus  I'm sure the guy from Cheltenham, already identified by many as the key figure in last nights depressing scenes at Hillsborough will have an army of social workers (and ideally even the police as well) visiting him before the weekend is out. I watched the match on TV and it didn't make pleasant viewing. I wonder how we would have felt had it been Torquay fans behaving as the leeds supporters did last night. With the fences down at the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough is there an area of any football ground in England where football fans should feel a greater obligation to behave reasonably, not to cause trouble, or show that they can't be trusted to behave properly without being caged ? Then we add to that the throwing of a flare onto the pitch, the singing in praise of someone police are describing as one of the most prolific child sex offenders Britain has known,the despicable chants aimed at Dave Jones,and invading the pitch and physically assaulting a player. I would probably have expected Simon Baker and Martin Ling to say that on the night the fans had dragged the Clubs name through the mud, and I'd imagine they'd be ashamed of us. Therefore, I was utterly amazed and appalled to see Warnock telling his players to applaud the Leeds supporters after what we'd witnessed from them last night. Many present within Hillsborough were equally startled by that decision, as I'm sure Barton Downs would have been had he not been rushing off in search of the No.52. Sky's after match interview, with the Leeds manager outside the dressing room while still wearing his training top was enlightening with Warnock accusing the Wednesday goalkeeper of ' going down like a sack of spuds' after the assault. Within the next 10 minutes they tried to 'row back' from this position and the corporate spin machine had hastily put a few lines together and we were read a Statement with all the usual wording 'Leeds United apologises blah blah blah, disassociates...blah blah etc'. Warnock meanwhile was put into a suit and tie and once again wheeled out before the media and this time he'd been fully briefed as to what to say, and probably just as importantly what not to say. Leeds United have been the scum of English football as long as I can remember, and still today in 2012 their reputation in that regard has never been stronger. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 9:39:37 GMT
And it appears the alleged culprit had already breached his banning order several times when I encountered him last November travelling on the rail network on the day of a Leeds game.
Jon made the very valid point recently about our attempts to explain the behaviour of others. I wouldn't attempt to look too deeply into the mind of the character I saw and heard on the train. Yet I can't help suspecting that there may be something of a desire to be notorious. If that was him at Hillsborough, he appears to have seized that opportunity. The chilling thing is that he seems quite happy to act alone.
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Post by Dave on Oct 20, 2012 9:53:28 GMT
You're not making sense, Dave. You say you're talking about events that happened this week, in this country. Which are those then? John Terry racially abused Anton Ferdinand months ago. The only other related talking point involving "large groups of people" this week occurred in Serbia, but you say uou're not talking about that. So how does calling out racists cause episodes like the John Terry affair? Nothing new there then Lambie on the TFF  In the report I read and put a link up to the word racism was used to describe the chants shouted out. I stand by what I have said about people now being afraid to air their thoughts and views in public due to the fear of labels being put on them. A few years ago he had a thread running on the TFF that sadly got out of order in the end. The thread was about travelers and I never once in any post I made on that thread, called them any names IE scum etc, but argued my points about how they were allowed to get away with braking the law when the rest of us would find ourselves getting charged. For my troubles I ended up along with a few others who held the same viewpoint as myself, being called a bigot when nothing was further from the truth. I simply held a view I know is shared by so many others and only stated my objections to the unfairness of what was going on. What was amazing to me that the poster who put such a label on me made a post sometime afterward where the sentence " like looking for a n***r in a woodpile " was used. I did challenge this remark and was told by the said poster he did not know that sentence was seen as a racist remark. I did find that surprising based on who the poster was and the views I knew he held on racism. If we except that as defense then fair enough as it does show there can be things said these days that are seen as racist remarks when in the past that was not the case. I'm not alone at my age not knowing just what I can say out loud these days, sure I know the word n***r and P****i along with a number of others should never be used and rightly so, but there are other words I simply play safe with and try and never use as I fear one of those lets stick a label on Dave, will not be too far away. We all know I live to talk and do talk to so many people around the Southwest of England at least. I do get shocked many times the things people do say to me while talking one to one. it tells me that for many the views they hold are the same ones they have always held, only as they do not talk about them openly to others, we all seem to think such views are a thing of the past. Back to what has been posted on this thread this morning, I think Alpine Joe makes some very valid points. As he has said of all the grounds and away ends where football fans should behave, Hillsbrough is one of them. Having now watched the clip Phil put up I had to view it a number of times as I could not believe what I was seeing. Lets hope the guilty person gets charged and given a proper and fit punishment for his actions. |
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 20, 2012 10:25:17 GMT
Dave, there's a difference between using words and idioms you don't realise are offensive, and the use of gratuitously offensive behaviour, insults or openly racist conspiracy theories.
If someone tells you a word is considered offensive, you can react in two ways:
1. Say you didn't realise, and that it wasn't your intention to be so.
2. Act the victim and cry that you're not allowed to speak freely any more.
You can't sincerely take the first option if you're a racist.
Having seen the effects of racists in action in real life, I know that confronting these people - physically if necessary - is the only way. Letting them "have their say", as if life is some sort of tennis match, is naive at best, deeply dangerous at worst.
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I'm sure the guy from Cheltenham, already identified by many as the key figure in last nights depressing scenes at Hillsborough will have an army of social workers (and ideally even the police as well) visiting him before the weekend is out.