jack
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Post by jack on Aug 10, 2008 22:08:27 GMT
Sean - Football is a results based business and you just cannot see into the future I am afraid. Whether Paul Buckle sees out his contract or not is impossible to say at this stage. Are you seriously suggesting that the board will continue to back Paul Buckle because he is a good bloke and talks to the fans if he cannot win football matches. That is I would suggest probably not the the case.
It is of course early days but there are stirrings of discontent on certain counts.
We were generally unimpressive in the friendly matches when we did not look like scoring. This seems to have been carried over into our first league match.
We have it seems signed too many central midfielders.
Buckle was quoted as saying he signed Michael Brough to play at centre half.
if that is the case it was a mind bogglingly poor decision. Having witnessed Brough's performance for Forest Green at Plainmoor and again at Tiverton I can tell you that he cannot play in that postion. Nothing against the player - he played well in another friendly in his proper position (central midfield).
That means we have Brough,Wroe,Thompson,Adams,Hargreaves,Mansell and Lee Hodges whose best position are probably central midfield. Because of this it appears that we had three players whose best position is central midfield filling three of the back four places ob Saturday.
Is this odd or what.
The squad looks unbalanced and disjointed.
These comments are not a knee jerk reaction to failing to beat Histon, but where was the pace in this team?
Fans are not blind and are entitled to raise their concerns.
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Enzo
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Post by Enzo on Aug 10, 2008 22:29:03 GMT
Let me just give you this from the horses mouth, Paul Buckle is under a contract with TUFC and at this club there will be no reason to terminate/cancel/sack our manager. What most of you do not see is the commitment that Paul shows not only to the club but the fans. On several occations when our families have been out together TUFC fans will always approach him and ask him questions, Paul always gives them an enthusatic reply and is keen to hear their thoughts. I can assure there is no one with more dedication to this club then Paul. What upsets us the most is the negative rubbish. This is reality check time. we are in this position due to the miss management of old incumbants. So lets not talk about 12 games and the board getting nervous. The board is fully behind Paul and honour the contract. Name me three better managers then Paul Buckle. Get off his back and put your energy into supporting this exciting team he has put together with a tight budget. Sean I'm glad we have a Manager in Paul Buckle who is fully dedicated to the club and takes time to respect and engage with the club's fans. The skills you outline could equally be applied to Paul Compton when he was Manager of the club - however he was inexperienced, tactically inept and made many mistakes. Buckle did reasonably well in his first season, but as with anyone he made mistakes.......and plenty of them. I have no doubt the board will rightly give Paul the time to learn his trade - I hope their support is rewarded. In the meantime, lets not pretend that Buckle is the finished article. 'Negative rubbish'? Surely fans can post their frustrations with a manager after a performance such as the one yesterday? We were very, very ordinary. The board have backed Buckle in his close season transfer activity and we start a season with a largely injury free squad with two of our midfielders playing in defence. Whilst any ultimatum is counter productive, fans are entitled to ask questions. On yesterdays performance the Hargreaves experiment is a tactical disaster - I like the guy, but he lost header after header after header, his failed to read the game and was way out of position repeatedly. Suddenly his distribution was as bad as it ever could be from recognised centre backs like Robertson, Woods and Ellis. Not only do we lose 'Hargreaves the midfielder', but our defence is all over the place. Paul Buckle has been supported way beyond any other recent Torquay managers with both playing and backroom staff. You mention 'tight budget'. I am no position to question you, but can you clarify what you mean by that - compared to what?........previous Torquay managers? compared to other BSPL clubs.......Histon for eg? Merse The Play offs are a lottery. You need to be at your best and have a little luck to progress. Just because a team gets knocked out, it does not necessarily mean the manager has made a 'pigs ear' of things. BUT - In hindsight, the manner in which Buckle tinkered with the side against City did not increase our chances of success. I would argue the opposite in fact. City scored four goals in the final twenty minutes of the tie- you could say that luck deserted us. However, if you watch those 180 minutes again you may agree with me that such a scoring streak could have occurred at any stage during that contest. In the first leg, it was only City's failure to convert chances during the first 30 minutes that kept us in the tie. They created chance after chance after chance because Buckle had tinkered and in the most important game of the season had sent a team out that did not understand his tactics and their individual roles. Not my opinion, but Buckles. It took him 30 minutes to get Sills and Phillips to understand what he wanted them to do. We won that game in spite of Buckle not because of him. I want Buckle to succeed and fans getting on his back is not going to help the club progress. However, for him to develop, I hope the board are not as blind to his failings as some on here. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 11, 2008 2:49:54 GMT
 I have not claimed there should be no debate on a forum for fans.................someone else has inferred I have said that. I have said however, that to have some sort of stewards' enquiry/kangaroo court or whatever one wishes to call it after just twelve games into the season is an insult to all concerned. The relative comparison of Buckle's total return with Paul Tisdale's over a prolonged period is far more relevant and takes a realistic assessment of things into the realms of a fans' forum. Dave, if you want me to justify my postings re Elliot Benyon in relation to the ethics of holding "enquiries" into a manager, that is a totally different field altogether. For all we know, Benyon might have got his place on Saturday merely because the manager " forgot to include Matt Green's name on the team sheet" as that once vaunted manager claimed to have done with Alex Russell at Kidderminster the season we won promotion. However, I doubt it; I (perhaps) naively expect he sees Benyon as a better reader of Sills' positions and flick ons than the other two available strikers..................but that's all opinion. When discussing someone's future at the head of a company - or more accurately it's production side; there are far more aspects to informed opinion making than merely adding up points scored. I am not "blindly following Buckle", like any other fan I would probably select a different team than he does on many an occasion; what I am stating is that I find the whole suggestion that having an "enquiry" into someone's future at the club - and therefore in employment, distasteful and insulting. How that then becomes "stifling debate" or denying fans the right to partake in a forum baffles me.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 11, 2008 3:05:15 GMT
Enzo................you're assessment of the Exeter City defeat is valid and one with which I would not disagree per se. However, it could be argued that if taking the Boxing Day game as an example; City absolutely mullered us in the first half because..............  ? why? They did not do the same in the second half because......... ?? Was it not " tinkering" by Buckle that then made such a huge difference on Boxing Bay? That's what the manager is there for surely? It could be considered that the prime reason Lee Phillips is no longer with us is down to the suggestion that in two vital games (the play off defeat and the Trophy Final) he failed to carry out the pre-match instructions of the manager....................only "could be" I venture! Yes, Bucks lost tactical battles then, just like he won tactical battles on other occasions. That's not "mismanagement" that's coming second in the two horse race that is football management on the day when the ability and reliability of others (the players) is to a great extent out of one's hands. If football directors can't accept defeat in a particular games(es) with good grace and in context, then they like fans should not be in that game.................and I am not suggesting for one minute that our directors are.
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Enzo
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Post by Enzo on Aug 11, 2008 10:43:24 GMT
Enzo................you're assessment of the Exeter City defeat is valid and one with which I would not disagree per se. However, it could be argued that if taking the Boxing Day game as an example; City absolutely mullered us in the first half because.............. ? why? They did not do the same in the second half because......... ?? Was it not " tinkering" by Buckle that then made such a huge difference on Boxing Bay? That's what the manager is there for surely? It could be considered that the prime reason Lee Phillips is no longer with us is down to the suggestion that in two vital games (the play off defeat and the Trophy Final) he failed to carry out the pre-match instructions of the manager....................only "could be" I venture! Yes, Bucks lost tactical battles then, just like he won tactical battles on other occasions. That's not "mismanagement" that's coming second in the two horse race that is football management on the day when the ability and reliability of others (the players) is to a great extent out of one's hands. If football directors can't accept defeat in a particular games(es) with good grace and in context, then they like fans should not be in that game.................and I am not suggesting for one minute that our directors are. It could also be argued that the Boxing Day game was another example of Bucks losing a tactical battle. The big question asked of us that day was how to handle Mackie. We failed. I think it was a sending off which made more of a difference than Buckle's tinkering. Based solely on the rumour mill, Phillips departure may have had More to do with the way he reacted when not playing rather than his ability to follow instructions. With our squad this season, one of major battles for Buckle is to keep all of our non playing players fit and mentally up for the cause. Something went wrong with that regard last season. I'm not expecting Buckle to get it right all of the time. Defeat is part of the game. The board have backed Buckle and must trust him. This is not the time to panic - who would have thought that Aldershot would walk away with it last season after we pumped them this very week one year ago. What does concern me however, and I believe it is a perfectly valid topic to discuss on a forum, is that in my opinion, he is losing too many of these tactical battles..............battles which he should have a distinct advantage due to our squad being extremely well resourced and us being a full time professional club. Respect the league we are in, but accept that if we apply ourselves properly we should have an advantage against many teams in this league. This kind of resource may not last for ever - I just hope that Buckle is not wasting this by acting like a kid in a sweet shop with players - he has given Woods an extended contract, re-signed Robertson, signed Ellis (one for the for the future, I accept) and been quoted as saying that Brough is earmarked for centre back.........and yet he plays Hargreaves there?? If I was bank rolling this I'd be puzzled. Had Compo been supported in this way, even he could have made a fist of it. Buckle must be given credit for assembling two very capable squads, but as I outlined in the previous post, in my opinion we won some games in spite of Buckle rather than because of him. Given our expenditure I would hope that we have built a squad to win at least half the games in this league whatever the tactics are. Are Histon still part time? Our fitness levels were worrying on Saturday - I felt we looked sluggish and uninspired. I'm amazed that at least one poster (sorry, I can't remember person's name) thought that Hargreaves was good on Saturday. Football is a weird, weird game. |
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jack
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Post by jack on Aug 11, 2008 10:44:24 GMT
Merse - of course it could also be argued that our comeback against Exeter on boxing day was down to the fact that they had a player sent off, probably far more likely than a tactical masterstroke from Buckle.
I take it that you are not a great fan of Elliott Benyon but the reason that he probably started before Matt Green was probaby due to the latters woeful form in the pre season friendlies. This was reinforced by Buckle losing his rag with Green in the middle of the pitch during the match with Eastleigh - this was even before the player had got on the pitch. Coincidence then that he didn't even get on the pitch on Saturday? - Somehow I think not.
It is of course early days but whatever you say Phillips and Zebroski appear at the moment to be major losses to our cause.
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Post by daveshaw on Aug 11, 2008 12:05:18 GMT
Sean, I'm sure Bucks is a hard working decent guy. That doesn't make him the finished article. Blind following of a mate doesn't fix his inadequacies.
Bucks so far has failed to fix glaring problems in the team (i'll list them if you want, but i think we all recognise what they are). He got it very wrong towards the end of last season, didn't see it, and guess what? We didn't get promoted!
This is now his team. He has the backing of the board and the fans (me included). But that does not mean we should not call to question when he makes the same mistakes.
12 games is a perfectly fair analysis point. Plenty of time to fix the problems. Plenty of time to get HIS team to gel. He can do the job or not If not, then there is time to put it right.
I would like to stress that i really hope he is up to the task. But judging from his record so far i'm not convinced.
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Post by jimd on Aug 11, 2008 12:11:57 GMT
Sean, I'm sure Bucks is a hard working decent guy. That doesn't make him the finished article. Blind following of a mate doesn't fix his inadequacies. Bucks so far has failed to fix glaring problems in the team (i'll list them if you want, but i think we all recognise what they are). He got it very wrong towards the end of last season, didn't see it, and guess what? We didn't get promoted! This is now his team. He has the backing of the board and the fans (me included). But that does not mean we should not call to question when he makes the same mistakes. 12 games is a perfectly fair analysis point. Plenty of time to fix the problems. Plenty of time to get HIS team to gel. He can do the job or not If not, then there is time to put it right. I would like to stress that i really hope he is up to the task. But [glow=yellow,2,300]judging from his record so far [/glow]i'm not convinced. Come on Dave...Buckles record so far is One season as a manager and gets his team to third place in the league and a cup final at wembley. Seems like a pretty good record so far to me  |
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Post by daveshaw on Aug 11, 2008 12:20:53 GMT
Sorry JIm i should have been more clear. I'm not convinced about his record on learning from previous mistakes and putting them right.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2008 16:31:04 GMT
Merse you say enquiry" into someone's future at the club - and therefore in employment, distasteful and insulting.
Sp please tell me where on the forum you have read this? has anyone said he needs to go after 12 games? No, so why twist things, what has been said is fans want to see where we are in 12 games and then access the situation.
I have said the board will act if they need to, but did I say that meant getting rid of Buckle. I did say I would hope if he himself felt he was not able to meet the expectations of the fans or the board and take the club where it needs to go, he would make the correct decision himself.
You really need to watch our play off games again and I do not see any difference, in you questioning the ability of a player, as any fan questioning the ability of the manager.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2008 17:19:55 GMT
Jun 5, 2008, 8:07pm, sean01 wrote:Dave I know all the effort that you have put into his site, and the way you have allowed posters like Merse and myself to start posting. We will not let you down and more importantly we will support you in your venture.
I know that this time of year it will be quiet on all sites, footballers, managers, chief exec, are all on holiday.
Perserver with this Dave because the importance of this site being succesful cannot be over stressed.
You have provided a public service and no one should abuse this.
I have passed your site details on to all my friends who support TUFC and they will all be on your site soon.
I am commited to this site and I would like all posters to go and get a friend onto this site.
I am also asking that TUFC create a link to this board, Im seeing Alex next week for our monthly meeting.
Everyone post your support to Dave and get posting so that this site may continue to evolve.
Being new to this site and forums, i having been reading all the old posts on here.
I found this post made by sean01 and find it funny, that he says that Dave should persevere with the site because the importance of the site being successful cannot be over stressed. He then says he(Dave R) has provided a public service and no one should abuse this.
Yet as soon as any posts are made that might look like fans are daring to question or even moan then what seems OK to post comes into question. To quote sean01, has the world gone mad
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 11, 2008 19:06:31 GMT
I just knew there would be people who could not take my whole argument on board and you are proving that.................... For the last time I have clearly stated that I (meaning me) find people holding some sort of enquiry/post mortem/ into the manager's and team's performance just twelve games into a season insulting and demeaning. Any such "enquiry" based purely on the team's league position at that time is just ridiculous. Some people reckon the manager made a "pig's ear" of this and that, I don't. Failing to win a game is not making a pig's ear, it is merely losing a game. Teams do lose games, some did this weekend - we didn't. The losing of a game needs to be addressed to the people who lose it...................the players first and foremost. Dave Shaw reckons from a distance that results are the bottom line, with respect Dave; I do not. Maybe they do to you but they don't to me - and who is to hold this assessment after twelve games? People who have no knowledge whatsoever of the day to day manner in which the manager runs this club? Are they to arrive at a justifiable conclusion based purely on results? If the manager and players can put last season's narrow misses to achieve promotion and win a national trophy behind them and positively get on with bettering that this season, why can't supporters just let them get on with it without all this planned "assessment" nonsense before even a ball has been kicked in anger at Plainmoor and just one game of the season played? Let me remind you of something.........................in 1965 - 66 Frank O'Farrell's successful promotion campaign kicked off with a 0-4 defeat away to Bradford City..................and people who never even went to Histon on Saturday are getting their knickers in a twist because we came away with apoint from a team that finished seventh last season with four debutants in our side - how the hell would they have reacted then with that sort of attitude? Football is for enjoying for God's sake, stop attempting to disseminate and analyse everything to death. There are professionals paid good money to do that on our behalf. Be a good lad Dave, trot along to Plainmoor tomorrow but eat your dinner before you go and then you won't have the coke and the hot dog prices to moan about. It's not rocket science - a full belly can take no more. Enjoy the game and if the manager's selection doesn't match yours don't worry about it. That's what the directors pay the manager to worry about and charge you to make that possible. I genuinely hope to be enjoying listening to a victory tomorrow and then watching the next two games for myself. If we don't win tomorrow, it's not the end of the world but being a fan I desperately want to go to bed happy tomorrow night and a nice win would do that for me. But I'm buggered if we fail to win it will give me a sleepless night!
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 11, 2008 19:11:21 GMT
Dartgull: I interpreted Sean saying that the "world had gone mad" not due to people wishing to post but because (like me) he found the prospect of passing some sort of judgement after twelve matches ludicrous.................that's all.
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Post by andygulls on Aug 11, 2008 21:12:08 GMT
Dave Shaw, I Think 12 games should be enough to see how things are going, to be fair you say you would want an average of two points a game, so a win on Tuesday, keeps the average points total on track. As I have said if we are not making the progress we all think we should by the end of the 12 games, then I will be standing next to you, looking for answers from the club. I still would not be looking to get Buckle replaced at that still early part of the season. I am not too sure how this 12 game thing has been blown out of proportion. From the quote above it is clear that Dave R was NOT suggesting that any managerial change was necessary at that stage.The debate Dave R and I were having was about the ability of our forwards to score goals. I have concerns that we do not have the necessary goalscoring ability in the current 4 forwards - Dave R believes otherwise and believes he will be proved correct by the 12 game mark! At the risk of repetition if I may bring the Tisdale comparison into the frame again, City last year opened the season with a high frequency of drawn games and fans calling for him to be sacked. He lost few games however and ended up being promoted. I would want to see similar progress from us. Have to say though to everyone some good posts on this thread - keep it up all! ;D |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2008 21:13:33 GMT
Take your time Merse and go back to the very first post on this thread, It was made by me.
The title of this thread is GIVE PAUL BUCKLE YOUR COMPLETE SUPPORT.
A thread that was really meant to get the message out, that we all need to support the manager of our club.Well sorry but some have shown concern about our preseason, felt it was very poor and guess what it was.
Some have shown concern that the team looks unbalanced with the players we have and guess what it does.
Some have said they want to wait until 12 games have been played, to see it the team shapes up by then.
Yet some how you have tried to turn this, like Sean did into something else. You have made it look like this forum and some of its members have started a witch hunt against Buckle, giving him, just 12 weeks to for fill our wishes or leave.
Strange how YOUR tone and style of posting changes when Sean has been on the forum, the forum that is here to do a public service. Well that was what it tried to do, tried to give people a place free of power crazy mods. You see Maybe I made a big mistake, I made my stand and said this was not going to be used as an anti.net forum.
I mean you and Sean would have had a field day, had I let you, but I simply wanted this to be a forum in its own right. I do wonder why I bothered at times, this has taken over so much of my life, believing posters really wanted a forum like this, but I end up making most of the posts, just think if I had post counts on, I would be winning.
Feel free to get in your sly remarks and label me a moaner, just because I felt the food was to expensive at Plainmoor, well sorry I still feel it was. At least I stand true to what I say and do , not do u_turns, its just such a shame that it seems if you have views that are different, from yours, only one can be right.
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I have not claimed there should be no debate on a forum for fans.................someone else has inferred I have said that.
? why? They did not do the same in the second half because.........