Dave
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Posts: 13,081
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 18:50:01 GMT
A first class post sir, the question Is how do we change the game and what should It be changed too. It does seem that most forms Of contact are now outlawed and I feel the game Is poorer for It.
I think Andy made the point that money Is the real problem. winning at all costs and those In charge afraid Or unable to punish the players In a way, that a start could be made to rid the game Of the sort Of things we saw yesterday.
We invented this game, but like most things these days, It seems to be controlled by those from other lands. The problem Is that Its a sport where people have to pay to watch, how can a ref send Off too many players and leave the game unwatchable.
Like you said, players would soon learn to play the system, If refs clamped down on so many others parts Of the games, the players would do even more to get another player sent Off.
I really don't know the best way to tackle all these Issues, but If nothing else was sorted, stopping players rolling around would be on the top Of my list.
I do believe that If players were sent Off for faking injury and as a result It cost the team points, most managers would soon make sure his players stopped It.
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Nov 9, 2008 19:38:04 GMT
Thank you Merse, maybe I should get One Of those love buttons On here, I need some today, come on proboards, we have a forum to run   |
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Dave
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Posts: 13,081
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 19:41:14 GMT
Don't worry Phil I can handle that old fox merse, he learned some time ago, that he met his match with me.  |
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Post by buster on Nov 9, 2008 19:43:47 GMT
For me the key to any game is the referee & the coaches.
If all 3 are acting in an appropriate and responsible manner respect will follow.
Take rugby where the ref is often referred to as Sir. The coaches instile discipline and respect for others in their training whilst the ref takes control of the game for the sake of the game not for his or her own benefit.
The result is players respect the ref and the coach, so do not question decisions.
I accept there are of course occasions when this doesn`t happen but generally speaking it does.
You get a "weak" ref and or coach and discipline breaks down on and off the pitch.
You get a good ref and or coach and the players and fans respond positively.
Although money adds pressure on those involved. I`m sure those of us who have been involved with youth sports, where there is no money at stake, will know only too well there are coaches and parents about who believe in win at all costs.
I`ve sadly had to witness all sorts of verbal and physical abuse from parents and club officials who have adopted a win at all costs approach.
Until the ref and coaches together with their controling bodies seriously address discipline & the application of the rules of the game I don`t see matters on the pitch improving much.
buster
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merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 19:46:22 GMT
 ..................but he still can't quote me on what I didn't say. I'm well used to be told "Merse said this, Merse said that" by people who cannot separate what they read from what they think they read. So I said that people should get real and acknowledge that Evesham were trying every which way they could to ensure they stayed in the cup. Nobody died out there, we had a referee to deal with it (although it seems he once again got influenced in his decision making) and we progressed whilst they didn't. I didn't suggest they were right to do so, I explained how they had earlier got away with it against Rushden & Diamonds. I also stated that Evesham move in a very different world than we do. I didn't say that WE should seek to emulate them, yet it seems as if I tell some folk that I have just looked out of the window and it's pissing down with rain, I'm advocating Global flooding and a return to the days of Noah! 
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Dave
TFF member
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 19:47:53 GMT
Good points buster, sure Phil(chelstongull) has his views on youth football and the problems with parents, now that he has been a ref at some games.
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Post by chrish on Nov 9, 2008 20:02:41 GMT
A first class post sir, the question Is how do we change the game and what should It be changed too. It does seem that most forms Of contact are now outlawed and I feel the game Is poorer for It. I think Andy made the point that money Is the real problem. winning at all costs and those In charge afraid Or unable to punish the players In a way, that a start could be made to rid the game Of the sort Of things we saw yesterday. We invented this game, but like most things these days, It seems to be controlled by those from other lands. The problem Is that Its a sport where people have to pay to watch, how can a ref send Off too many players and leave the game unwatchable. Like you said, players would soon learn to play the system, If refs clamped down on so many others parts Of the games, the players would do even more to get another player sent Off. I really don't know the best way to tackle all these Issues, but If nothing else was sorted, stopping players rolling around would be on the top Of my list. I do believe that If players were sent Off for faking injury and as a result It cost the team points, most managers would soon make sure his players stopped It. Well thats the main question. I think if you ask a British football supporter to list his 10 biggest issues he has with the modern game they will be different to that of his/her Spanish, Dutch, Italian, French and German counterparts. I would imagine that we would have more in common with the Dutch and Germans but this is in essence the main problem. The only organisation which could have a influence on the framework of the modern game is FIFA. Their whole raison d'etre is to make sure that the game of football maintains its popularity and also make sure that it emerges as the most popular sport in every country. I don't think that they'll ever crack the USA (baseball, basketball and American Football), Canada (ice hockey), India (Cricket) or Australia (cricket/rugby league/kangeroo hunting) and Holland (Speed skating and pole sitting) but giving the USA the 1994 World cup and to a lesser extent Japan/South Korea in 2002 and South Africa in 2010 suggests that they are prepared to try as hard as possible to attract new interest away from the traditional football playing nations. Its sure going to be an interesting one in South Africa. In the black townships its by far and away the number one sport, but the country itself is known more for its Rugby Union and Cricket. The problem that FIFA have is making sure that the game is attractive to as many people as possible. Therefore the framework of the game must reflect this. At the moment with Platini on board, the emphasis is on exalting the virtues on attacking flair rather than defensive prowess. As stated in the previous post what constitutes as a foul play and how it has punished has changed to completely suit the attacking player. As Andy says you suspect that a "Kick the cheats out of football" campaign won't have much effect unless Platini and FIFA do a complete U turn. The problem is that highlighting issues such as Racism and cheating could be construed as being negative campaigns which are only relevant to some established traditional footballing nations. Although there is a FIFA "kick racism out of football" you sometimes get the impression that FIFA seems a bit unwilling to really crack down on people like Aragones making comments about Thierry Henry or the crowd in Madrid making racist chants to English players. Bernie Ecclestone downplaying rumours of racism in F1 is another example. I guess if you come up with a Anti Cheating campaign you have to identify what the problem actually is and get everybody to agree on what they need to tackle. In all reality its probably hard enough just to get UEFA countries to agree on what actually constitutes as cheating. You might even have huge differences in good old England about what cheating means between supporters of lower league clubs and those of premiership clubs. The FA could start a campaign but like Chris Roberts charter it would be utterly useless unless a lot of countries followed suit, plus it could compromise english teams in both European and World competitions. |
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Post by kipper on Nov 9, 2008 20:17:00 GMT
I'm advocating Global flooding and a return to the days of Noah! at least I would never mis-quote you... do you mean Jamie or George!! |
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Post by petergodfrey on Nov 9, 2008 20:17:12 GMT
I posted on the match report thread that I went to see Sheffield Utd play Barnsley yesterday where Darren Moore was playing for the home team. In connection with the 'cheating' thread it brought to mind the infamous play-off semi-final at Preston a few years ago, where Preston's Paul Raynor seemed to feign a facial injury after a tussle with 'Bruno' which resulted in our centre-back being sent off with direct results on the outcome as Preston went on to win with a series of long balls and crosses which Moore was obviously no longer there to deal with. Have any of the Gulls fans who were there, like me, ever forgiven Raynor ? I think not !
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merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 20:26:26 GMT
I'm advocating Global flooding and a return to the days of Noah! at least I would never mis-quote you... do you mean Jamie or George!! If that's what you thought you read, I thought you were offering me a gift of a couple of grand!  |
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Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 20:27:15 GMT
Poor Merse, misunderstood, so often misquoted, so often following the wrong leader(Roberts) but what would a forum be without him, I think Its time he came home to his roots and mix with us gentle and small folk, who may struggle to climb up to those high seats, but still get a good enough view, to see what really Is going on.
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merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 20:28:55 GMT
Have any of the Gulls fans who were there, like me, ever forgiven Raynor ? I think not ! Do snakes have sticky out ears? I think not!  |
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merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 20:31:06 GMT
Poor Merse, misunderstood, so often misquoted, so often following the wrong leader(Roberts) That'll be the Roberts who had a Fair Play Charter then Dave?  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2008 20:56:38 GMT
Chris, these are superb posts. That's the main thing to say really.
Not sure if I've anything original to add but you really got me thinking about how fans around the world would differ when asked about the key issues.
I'm sure you're right in speculating that British, Dutch and German responses would be broadly similar. In these, and other football parts of the world, fans would be keen not only to talk about the way the game is played - with quite differing opinions - but they'd also want to discuss the way the game is run, how it is reported, how and where it is watched, etc, etc. In short, in these places the game is part of culture. To use the worn cliche: it's more than just a game.
Elsewhere, as you say, FIFA is seeking to expand the game. For many years it was almost part of a head-to-head tussle with basketball (we're probably the last country to appreciate the influence of the NBA throughout the world - that is basketball, isn't it?). The USA aside - where the Hispanic population still looks South of the Border for its fix - I do think football has made some progress in Canada, Australia and New Zealand (the women's U17 World Cup in NZ is getting almost as much coverage as the netball at the moment!).
For sure it's limited but, listening to Internet radio, the Premier League is gaining much more coverage in these countries than when I visited them. Significant numbers of people there could probably now debate the way the game is played but, I guess, the cultural stuff would be beyond them (and may never happen). In this sense it's probably similar to talking football with people in this country who have a bit of interest - but not a great deal - in football at the same time as being interested in rugby and tennis and golf and cricket and, if it's on Eurosport, pole sitting from Eindhoven.
Not sure what I'm trying to say but it is a more than a game in some places; just a game amongst games in others. But, as you say, the rules have to apply across the world.
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Post by forevertufc on Nov 9, 2008 21:23:53 GMT
hi dave r ,i do respect merse 's views whislt i dont allways agree ,i think he and few others missed the point ,when he says about players at southern league level getting up at dawn ,and the passion they play with fine nothing against that ,and when people go on about the odd bit of rule bending fine we all turn a blind eye ,evesham's players simply cheated going down after the slightest of contact like they had been hung drawn and quatered ,compare them to chipstead they play at the same level their players did not feel the need to dive about all over the place trying to get our players sent off ,and put up a better show and worked bevan alot more than evesham did ,some one said nice guys get no where sorry cheats get no where , i do feel strongly about this ,i like a few others have a level 1 coaching certifcate and have attended f.a training days for coachs ,i also manage an under 11 football team ,we are asked by the f.a to teach our kids the right way ,and educate them about cheating ,i have seen kids as young as 9 diving on the football field when you ask them why ,they say i saw it on match of the day ,and this is where the f.a have it all wrong ,i was right infront of an incident of gross play acting by an evesham player ,the ref knew what he ahd done because he laughed ,and then grinned at the player as if to say i know what your up to ,so why oh why was he not booked ,if the f.a force referees to book send of players for cheating it will stop very quickly ,top flight mangers jobs can depend on having 11 players on the pitch ,and then us youth coachs can get on with our job of teaching football.
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