Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 10:11:12 GMT
You know that merse character really makes me laugh at times, If you don't know who he Is, let me tell you he Is the one , who Is referred to as The One Who Sits Up High
He has become know as this, only because he has always claimed that his views and observations on any game, had to be the correct one, as he was sitting higher than the other fans and therefore got the better and correct perspective Of the game.
Now If you were to try and talk with him about the Premiership players, he would be so quick to tell you, that they were all a bunch Of prima donas, diving all over the place, to win penalties Or rolling over the ground after being tackled, making out they are badly Injured as a result Of the tackle.
Fair enough you may say, we have all seen such antics ourselves on the TV and at games we may have been at, yet he now seems to be confused with his views and somehow has felt the need to defend the antics Of the Evesham players.
Now was this Merse sat up high at the game? no he was not even there, but still feels he knows what he Is talking about.He tells us It happens so get over Its part and parcel Of the game.
Well sorry Merse, but the Evesham players antics were nothing short Of a disgrace, the rolling around On the floor, making out an Injury , In the hope Of getting a player sent Off, should not be anything we should get use too, It has no part In the game and needs to be clamped down on.
We had players booked yesterday as a result Of Evesham's antics, players who could miss some very important must win game, but due to what can only be described as cheating could be sitting In the stands.
You ask would we take a doggy penalty against Exeter In the play-offs, well If the ref had made an incorrect call, then there Is nothing we can do about, you get some decisions In your favour and some that go against you, now that Is something we have to get use too.
But would you really be happy knowing your player dived and cheated to get a penalty? sorry but I know that I would be very unhappy If that happened. Any victory that has come about because you cheated, Is a very hollow victory and In my book, worthless, because you only won by cheating and I really hate cheats.
If you think Its fine to cheat, then when our team gets knocked Out of a big cup game, Or loses that last game Of the season, the game that If we had won, we would have gone back up, then you will be able to applaud the tactics Of the team, who we lost to, due to their cheating.
Is this what football supporters have now come down too? are we just happy to win at all costs, even If that means a game was decided, because we cheated better than the other team. Do you want us to believe that football fans no longer care Or believe In fair play?
Well he who sits so high, thats not what I want to watch, or support, yes I will take those decisions that go In our favour as I know Its swings and roundabouts, It will alway work both ways.
That Is not the same as players cheating, but down to some ref making the Incorrect decision, something completely different.
What ever happened to the fair play, that we use to have, anyway what goes around comes around and I firmly believe that cheats never prosper In the end. I want to be proud Of my team, because they won and won fairly, not having to feel that It won by foul means.
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Post by capitalgull on Nov 9, 2008 11:54:15 GMT
Sorry Dave but fair play disappeared from football when people decided to make it worth so much money and add a 'win at all costs' ethos to the sport, which is now more of a business than a game.
Players may not have put up with the antics of teams like Evesham 'back in the day' (although since I was not there I can't profess to say how bad they were) since the game was policed by the players themselves and not by referees who now find themselves being trained more to deal with the media than with learning the rules of the game.
I would imagine yesterday's game was the biggest in Evesham's history, and what good would it have done them to come to Plainmoor, roll over (no pun intended regards the subject of the thread) and let us win without making it as hard a day as they possibly could, within or outside of the rules. And let's face it, if the referee allowed them to get away with what seems to have been a series of play-acting dives and over-egging challenges, then he becomes as much to blame for being incompetent as they are to blame for not playing within the spirit of the game, for what little that means nowadays.
Sure, we might have seen Chipstead behave well and make a good impression on us, but who among us can honestly say we have looked out for their results since just because they were so nice and played a 'fairer' game? And none of us will soon care about Evesham either.
At the end of the day, they came to Plainmoor to try and win themselves £25,000 (I think that's the figure) and win themselves the chance to win even bigger money in following rounds, and I wouldn't condemn them for trying any means, fair or foul, if the officials were allowing them to get away with it.
And if you can honestly say you have never seen a TUFC player attempt to play outside the rules, I would suggest you maybe need to sit 'on high' once or twice because you seriously cannot be seeing the whole picture. 'Cheating' happens at all levels of the game, from the very top to the youngest of kids, and we have done it many times ourselves in an attempt to sway the game in our own direction. (Dare I mention Tim Sills and his swan dive versus Exeter on Boxing Day as an example of using the rules (and another players' stupidity) to TUFC's benefit).
There is little chance of it getting any better in the future, since money is never going to go away from the business, and since kids nowadays are brought up with a win at all costs ethos. They aren't going to forget that, as much as some of us would like them to, and if they taste success by bending the rules, chances are they will continue to do so.
And sadly it's not just football either....golfers bend the rules with their equipment, cricketers bend the rules (even today Australia were accused of ball-tampering and they are meant to be the best team in the world) and cyclists bend the rules by imbibing any drug they can get their hands on.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 12:29:41 GMT
Andy your are 100% correct In all you say and I would struggle to disagree with the reasons you have given, as to why such things go on In all sports these days.
Yes we have had players who have cheated, you mention Tim Sills, but tell me, were you not disgusted by his behavior, In a Torquay United shirt? Is that the sort thing we want our players to do, Or be known for doing.
Do you not think respect should be important? because that lot yesterday left the ground with none at all, when they could have come to our ground, put up a good fight, yes maybe some slight rule bending and gone home feeling proud.
Surly footballers and clubs at all levels should have pride, firstly In their cub and team,but also as individual people. How can you gain any pride from anyone let alone yourself, If the best you can do Is roll around, faking injury, to gain an advantage.
There Is no need for It, yes we know the reasons, but there is no reason, why those who make and enforce the rules, can't start to rid sport Of all the cheating and tactics like we saw yesterday.
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merse
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 12:47:11 GMT
let me tell you he Is the one , who Is referred to as The One Who Sits Up HighHe has become know as this, only because he has always claimed that his views and observations on any game, had to be the correct one, as he was sitting higher than the other fans and therefore got the better and correct perspective Of the game. You ask would we take a doggy penalty against Exeter In the play-offs, well If the ref had made an incorrect call, then there Is nothing we can do about,  All I've ever done is lay claim to attempting to get the best view of the game I wish to watch and if that means going into another area from the low down parts behind the goal often given over to travelling fans so be it. Where did Bucks go get a better over view of the game yesterday, in the Family Stand? No of course not, he was in the back of the Grandstand. If you read carefully what I had posted, you would see I was not condoning Evesham, I was saying to the "outraged" poster that he shouldn't be so pretentious and get real. To me he sounded as ridiculous as the Arsene Wenger "don't try to beat my boys by giving them a hard time" mantra and YOU come over just as I would expect someone of your age who professes to spending the game playing "dodge the sweetie" and chatting about anything and everything under the sun. I would also appreciate you NOT confusing a statement by Dave Shaw and attributing it to me (what you choose to call "doggy"(do you mean dodgy?) penalties and the subsequent refereeing decision. All I'm suggesting is a bit of street wisdom and awareness of the real world, NOT condoning sharp practice. If I avoid a dark alleyway at night to reduce the chances of being mugged I'm being "streetwise" not condoning street robbery. If I insist on walking down that dark alleyway because I have some high and mighty opinion that such deeds are outrageous, I'm just being a bloody idiot! Sit on a cushion and view my postings from a higher perspective...........you might get a better understanding of where I am coming from!  |
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Post by capitalgull on Nov 9, 2008 12:47:25 GMT
I wouldn't lie and say I was proud of what Sills did, but I am a realist and know things like that happen in football nowadays, and have actually gone on for many years, even back to the 'good old days' of Billy Bremner, Francis Lee and others.
Attempting to get opponents sent off will never be outlawed unless refereeing standards improve, football's officialdom does something about it, or if players are handed lengthy bans and penalised heavily in the pocket themselves.
By lengthy I don't mean 3 games - I'm talking months or seasons - but that isn't going to happen either while players have agents and lawyers, and I don't think those in officialdom have the bo**ocks to do anything about it anyway.
Maybe a 'Kick Cheating Out Of Football' campaign along the lines of the 'Kick Racism Out Of Football' would be a start, but I doubt whether it could ever be a success.
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merse
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 13:08:17 GMT
Do you not think respect should be important? because that lot yesterday left the ground with none at all, when they could have come to our ground, put up a good fight, yes maybe some slight rule bending and gone home feeling proud. The type of "muck 'n nettles" characters who do well at Southern League Premier level are the ones who readily commit themselves to getting up early for work, dash off to evening training; travel all over the shop getting home in the early hours and go out and scrap for what ever they can accrue in the way of a little appearance money and win bonus on the field. Dealing with injury for them doesn't mean sitting on the treatment table doing their horses like the full timers, it could mean driving a Transit with a packet of frozen peas stuffed down their jeans. It takes commitment, it takes grit and it takes a mental toughness that many cossetted young full timers will never find within themselves. Some of those "foot soldiers" would have been mixing with the Joe Coles of this world not so long ago at the Academies of the big clubs. Whilst they have not made it at that exalted level, they have at least kept a toe hold in the game whereas the less determined ones would have drifted away. Such characters are often not the nicest most principled people in football.....................they are the survivors. You want to pop along to training at Evesham one drizzly Tuesday night Dave; it will open your eyes to reality. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2008 14:34:24 GMT
I can a bit of an Old Merse (noun, first reported usage 2008) myself at times favouring the higher view from the side when it's available (it was bloody cold in that stand at Weymouth on Tuesday). I also share his liking for bold type.
On the wider issue I do prefer my football on the ground (and always hope for the best within the context of what I'm watching) but I also appreciate - and try to understand - the reality, grit and competition of the game. I can easily read all of these postings and agree - and disagree - with something in each. And sometimes, of course, I can find a fence sufficiently high-in-the-sky and spend 90 minutes getting a sore backside.
Old Merse's rusings can be a trifle grim - no, no I mean gritty - but I'd say I'm 70:30 with him on most of what he says. I suppose I get around the dilemma by watching a lot of matches as a neutral: I can put on one hat watching Torquay United; quite another watching other games.
Merse is perfectly correct inferring that players at Evesham's level are amongst the most committed - and I'd say - most uncompromising of all. Whether this should include the level of yesterday's theatricals, I'm not so sure. You've got to smile really - smile at the absurdity of the Evesham keeper's rolling about; grin wryly when one of your own team does something of a "professional" nature. I'm beyond getting worked up by these things.
Which brings us to Tim Sills. Sillsy is one of those players that other teams have but we've often lacked (although I'm sure most fans of most clubs say this type of thing). Dave Caldwell and Steve Cooper were similar, but different, in their own ways. These are the type of player you loved to hate when they played for another club but you knew, deep down, you wanted them on your side. Right now I'm sure Exeter supporters would love to have Sillsy because he's an aspect of the game they lack.
There's one word that particularly describes Sillsy: clever (in all meanings of the word). That will do for me. There were times against both Chipstead and Evesham when I thought Sillsy was particularly clever. Not that I'm sure it's something he learned on his Sports Science degree.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 15:18:22 GMT
Dear me Merse, now to defend your position, you feel the need to bring Bucks Into It, yes we all know that managers will at times get a view from the stand(even high up If necessary) to get a different perspective On the game. The reason some, well many makes jokes about he who sits up high Is for one good reason only. Any time others have had points Of views, saw the game differently from you, then In a desperate attempt to win your augment, you refer to the fact that you have to be correct, as you sit higher up  what a joke. Now to try and defend the disgraceful rolling about On the pitch by some Of the Evesham players, you Pratt on about life as a lower level player, as If It really should make any difference If they roll or not. I have been watching my boy play since he was six years, I have watched him play two games on a Saturday afternoon for spurs, seen his legs cut and blisters on his feet the size Of Mellon's.Only to have a bath, get a pin and pop the blisters and be playing a game On Sunday. Two more 7 aside games In the week, still having problems with his legs, yet you would not have been able to stop him playing On the Saturday. All this and still working full time, but heres what I find strange, I never saw him roll about ever, like I saw those Evesham players did yesterday.Don't get me wrong here, he has done some things on the pitch that got me mad and I made sure he knew my feelings , I always told him he was good enough and did not ever need to do anything to gain an unfair advantage, the good news Is he listened. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 16:27:48 GMT
Any time others have had points Of views, saw the game differently from you, then In a desperate attempt to win your augment, you refer to the fact that you have to be correct, as you sit higher up what a joke. You will of course be quoting me to back up your argument....................I look forward to that.  |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 16:31:05 GMT
Seeing that the only place where I could get such a quote has lost all Its histroy, that will not be possible on this occasion, you will just have to take my word for It |
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merse
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Post by merse on Nov 9, 2008 17:14:12 GMT
Seeing that the only place where I could get such a quote has lost all Its histroy, that will not be possible on this occasion, you will just have to take my word for It Only on THIS occasion?  |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 17:16:57 GMT
Thank you Merse, maybe I should get One Of those love buttons On here, I need some today, come on proboards, we have a forum to run  |
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Nov 9, 2008 17:47:43 GMT
Now to try and defend the disgraceful rolling about On the pitch by some Of the Evesham players, you Pratt on about life as a lower level player, as If It really should make any difference If they roll or not. It shouldn't matter at what level you play whether it be SDC League or Premiercheat level, cheating is cheating. I have all the respect for the Tiverton level guys who are up at the crack of Dawn (lucky Dawn eh?) but it can't/shouldn't be used as an excuse. At yesterdays game some mush from Eversham swung his foot, missed and then went down liked he been tackled by Chopper Harris. There was another incident with Sills when the their keeper came out sticking his oar in to try and get Sills booked. Nope, their keeper got all the boos he deserved. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2008 17:57:06 GMT
Yes Phil you are so correct, you must understand he who sits up high, Is trying anything to defend his latest big mistake, far better to say, look guys I was wrong, but come on this is merse we are talking about.  |
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Post by chrish on Nov 9, 2008 18:31:08 GMT
I like fast, attacking and open football being played by 22 players who are committed to playing the ball in an hard but fair way. I don't like negative football where "clever" players can't stay on their feet under the slightest buffeting from a defending player. I despaired at watching Deco during the World Cup in 2006. I wondered at the time how many of the 48 fouls he suffered actually involved physical contact or fouls being engineered in a sneaky way.
I remember watching Euro 2000 with a bunch of Italians and I can remember them complimenting players for what I would call blatant cheating and diving. "He was clever Chris" was the stock answer to me calling them a cheating bar steward.
Things have definitely changed in English football since I've been watching. I think that there's two main reasons why British players have had to become more clever over the last ten years or so. Firstly its the influence of the foreign players and secondly its the rule changes that have been enforced on referees because eventually Monsieur Magique Michel Platini wants tackles outlawed.
As for the influence of foreign players. I can remember Gary Lineker being interviewed on the BBC just after the Italia 90 quarter final V Cameroon in Naples. If you remember he'd won a couple of slightly iffy penalties during the game but he admitted that he'd learned during his time at Barcelona to leave his foot in to make sure he won the penalty (he picked up the FIFA fair play award after the tournament). It also interesting to note that at the same time Mark Hughes's slightly more robust and committed playing style never worked in Spain and they loaned him out to Bayern Munich before selling him back to Man United.
I think that there's a fine line in being clever and just being downright lazy to make up for a lack of commitment or ability or a lack of a decent first touch. I can't remember the last time I saw a genuine penalty won whereby a goalkeeper brings a forward down. The usual method seems to be booting the ball past the goalkeeper and making sure you collide with him in a moderately convincing way. To me this isn't being clever, its just a underhand way of rewarding those not being able to score one on one with the keeper.
The FIFA regulations have changed so much in the coming years. We have found ourselves praising a referee for letting games flow by letting possible yellow card incidents go. The net result being that its universally accepted as being a cracking match but then the FA suspends or demotes the referee in question because he or she isn't adhering to FIFA or FA guidelines. A couple incidents stick firmly in the mind to illustrate this point. Firstly was Leo Beenhakker's reaction to the penalty awarded against his Poland side during Euro 2008 by English ref Howard Webb. How mad have things become for a Dutch coach to criticise an English ref for giving a soft penalty? Technically it was the correct decision, but its disappointing how the slightest contact can now be determined as a foul.
The other incident was the Portugal V Holland match at the World Cup in 2006 when the ref applied the letter of the law and awarded 16 yellow and 4 red cards during the match. I don't think that the players covered themselves in glory but the ref set the tone that cards were gonna be issued pretty easily. For the rest of the game it was a story of players getting other players into trouble and the rest deciding that if they were going to get sent off it might as well be for something worthwhile.
The problem is that although its just as important to protect good attacking footballers from genuine foul play its also very necessary to make sure that by changing regulations and creating a culture of seemingly "untouchable" attacking players that we don't lose the art of good defending. The whole framework of football depends upon a very critical balance of attacking brilliance and defending expertise. I think that there was a need to stop thuggish defenders tackling from behind but now the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Who'd be a defender in the modern game?
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