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Post by pappy on Nov 30, 2010 13:28:13 GMT
I thought this would have been mentioned by now. What do you think of all the student protests happening in London? Personally I totally agree with the protests against the rise in university fees. If the coalition do put this through then it will affect me heavily and put me in debt for a lot longer. Why should we, the young pay for the MP`s mistakes of over-spending and totally cack way of running this country.
The protests is something I am torn over, yes I totally agree with the protests but I`m not sure yet about the way the protests are going. Me and some friends may be going london soon ourselves to join in. At my college there are things hapenning in the way of protests and all over Torbay thier are walk-outs, refusals to work etc and I applaud them, the coalition needs to listen and its going to take something drastic to get them to listen. For me I feel srongly about this as its going to affect me pretty big, what about you?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2010 16:11:40 GMT
As any decisions made on tuition fees do not affect me in anyway at all, I have been able to listen to all the debates on the subject on the J.Vine show and other sources and look at things from both sides.
Now before I go on I do not belong too or support any political party, in the past I have listened to what all the parties said they plan to do and have voted for the party that were going to do the things I agreed with.
My experience has been they are all as bad as each other, they never keep to the promises they make and more than often bring in changes I don’t agree with and would not have voted for them if I knew such changes were in their plans.
I’m sure many students voted for the Lib Dems in the last election as they promised if they got into power, they would scrape tuition fees. I can understand some will feel they have gone back on their word, but having listened to what a number of the Lib Dem minsters have said, I have to agree with many of the reasons they have given, why they are now where they are.
If they had won the election then they would have been able to carry out their election pledge, but they didn’t win and are in power with another party and that means they will have to compromise on so many things.
Looking at the way it all works, I feel it’s perfectly fair; my understanding is students don’t pay anything up front for their further education and only pay towards the education they received, when they earn a certain amount on money. The way I see it is if you want the education that will give you the chance of being a very high earner, why you should expect it for free.
One of the arguments I fully agree with is, that the low paid workers of this country should not have to pay toward student’s education so they can then go on and earn four, five or six times more than the lower paid workers.
As a low paid worker I have been out all-day from very early this morning earning my crust of bread. I know some of my earnings will be going to those who do not want to work, or those who won’t take a job unless it pays them more than they can get in handouts. I certainly don’t want more money taken off me so one day someone can earn very high wages and expect the education they received that made such high earnings possible, to be all free of charge to them and paid for by low paid workers in this country.
In a perfect world the country could afford free education for students, but there is no money for that to happen and it has to come from somewhere and why should it not come from those who will be getting the full benefit of it.
In a nutshell, if you want the education that will give you the opportunity to get a very well paid job and a much higher standard of living, then you need to be prepared to pay for it.
We should never lose our right to protest, but it has to be done lawfully and legally without there being any damage being caused deliberately, or any violence what so ever.
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Nov 30, 2010 17:30:11 GMT
Good question, but I think if you ask a 100 different people you will get 100 different viewpoints and most of those viewpoints will be according to whichever agenda the person has.
First of all though, if anyone ever protests about anything and the protest gets out of hand and turns violent, then they lose ALL respect from me. From that point they almost lose the validity of their argument. It was like the protests earlier in the year where banks etc were smashed up, I didn’t care much for their point of view after that and completely lost interest in what they had to say.
On to this debate, I fail to see the argument that poor people will be worse off, or unable to go to university. They will be in the same boat as students are now. The debt might be higher, but they have to earn more before they start paying it back. If people want to educate themselves and go on to possibly well paid jobs then that is the price to pay. I believe that it will be worth it for my daughters, others will obviously disagree that it is worth it for them.
For me personally, I have one daughter at University at the moment and the second will hopefully go, providing she gets her A levels and wants to go, in 2 ½ years time, so it’s quite relevant to me.
I don’t have a problem with it and certainly not as much of an issue with it as someone I work with who has a son and daughter in exactly the same position as me. Whilst my eldest is in her final year and has a student loan, she also knows that she will only pay a certain percentage of her wages back (5% I think, but don’t quote me on it) and then ONLY when she earns over approximately £15,000. This would work out at say £750 per year or £60 per month, obviously going up as her wages increase. Now for her at the moment £15,000 a year is more money than she could ever hope for, she has a part time job in Honiton during the summer, Christmas & Easter, that provides pocket money, but £15,000 is different league. She will be overjoyed if she is getting £15,000 a year so to pay back £60 a month will be nothing.
There is the argument that she is in debt, but the rules for paying it back mean that she has to be earning a semi decent wage in the first place and if she doesn’t then she doesn’t pay anything back. I know that the argument will be that this means the state has paid for her education and she has given nothing back, but she obviously wants a good job and will be hoping to earn a decent wage and pay back the loan quickly.
I appreciate the argument that if she left school and was earning £15,000 then she wouldn’t be paying anything back. However, jobs are hard to come by and the moment so she might not get a job at all let alone doing something that’s she wants to do. Besides we all have ambitions to get a job that will earn a good wage but to get a job like that, a lot of the time (note I didn’t say all of the time) a degree education will help.
I don’t know how it works in other families, quite different I am sure, but so far I have not had to provide any money to her directly, yes we take her some food when we go up, but she pays for everything herself. At the beginning of each term she knows how much she is going to get and budgets accordingly, if that means she can’t go out or buy stuff then that’s the way it is. She is fortunate to get a bursary each term and that along with her loans means that she has no overdraft or any other debt other than the loan to cover fees, which I imagine will be around £10,000 for her 3 years. I also appreciate that she is sensible with her budget but if students get themselves in debt by spending on other things then that’s a different matter.
By the time the younger one goes the increased tuition fees will be in, so will this stop her? No it won’t, admittedly if she pays £9000 per year she will owe £27,000 on completion, however she has to earn £21,000 before they take any. Now the same argument applies, she will be overjoyed if she earns that sort of money per year and would be more than happy to have £1050 or so taken out each year (£87.50 per month). Obviously the figures are very rough but they aren’t a million miles away from the true figures.
Another issue is whether or not you need a University degree in the first place, once again I expect you will get a mixed response on that. I personally believe that if you want a decent job these days that pays well then yes you will need a degree. That’s not to say that someone without a degree will get a similar paid job, however I believe you have more of a chance with that degree. Not that money is everything, although as we all know it does help.
Unfortunately in this current climate, some jobs are asking for Degree qualifications just to get an interview.
So overall I don’t have to many issues with that and I also believe that a lot of the protesters have no inclination to go to university and given the behaviour of a lot of the others I doubt they have the mental capacity to get in in the first place.
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Post by pappy on Nov 30, 2010 17:50:59 GMT
I see where your coming from Dave and yes we wouldn`t pay it back till we get a certain wage above £15,000 bu it does mean it the increase we`ll be in debt for longer for many more years to come. Personlly I am against the fee increase, we didn`t get the country into financial mess (The goverment did!). When students go to university they need to pay for thier needs like food and drink and usually have a budget of £6-£20 a week.
My mates who are a uni may get hit by the increase in thier final year and live on a very tight budget and are getting by but this is going to add to thier burden a bit. I think protests should never turn violent but talking hasn`t worked and "something" needs to be done to get the goverment to listen. I hope to go to these protests with some friends, obviouly I will never join in or support or even go near the violent or aggresive students but I do want to join in.
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Post by aussie on Nov 30, 2010 17:57:27 GMT
What tufc01 said with knobs on! I hope my daughter is as sensible as his has turned out. Kids with their heads screwed on the right way will do just fine!
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Nov 30, 2010 19:21:04 GMT
tufc01 - Won't your youngest owe £27k on fees, plus whatever is loaned for living expenses? That is what is being proposed, isn't it? Preferred the previous ideas of the LibDems to impose a Graduate tax, myself. No doubt argument is that it would be too expensive to administer, which is likely bollox as well. And that was being mooted around the time I was a student. Many moons ago. As someone who voted Lib Dem as it's a 2 horse race around here with Tories (like Torbay) with Labour barely getting deposit back, my view is to protest repeatedly. Good luck to 'em.  |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2010 19:38:58 GMT
I see where your coming from Dave and yes we wouldn`t pay it back till we get a certain wage above £15,000 bu it does mean it the increase we`ll be in debt for longer for many more years to come. So do you think it should be just free for students Joe? as tufc01 said in his post you would have to be earning £21.000 before you started having to pay anything back. If you want it to be free then you are asking every tax payer in the UK to pay for your further education as that is where the money would come from. If you get the education and never earn that much, then you end up paying nothing and when you die the debt dies with you. I think its a good deal and what is wrong with asking students to pay if as a result of the extra education they received, they earn a much better wage than they would have got without the extra education. If someone said to you. look we will give you three years free training to get a well paid job and if at the end of the three years you don't get the job, you will owe nothing, would you take up the offer? But what if the offer had a clause where if you did get the job you then had to pay over time the cost of that training. Would you still want to give it a try? Thats the nuts and bolts of it all Joe and yes students need to eat, but most get help from their families and also get part time jobs. |
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Post by stefano on Nov 30, 2010 19:48:04 GMT
Education is free for all up to 16 years of age or 18 if you take 'A' levels or whatever they may be called now (unless you choose 'private' education which strangely takes place in 'public' schools which is a choice as the free education is there if you want it). Having had free education at the age of 18 you then have a choice. It's not compulsory to attend university so if you are not happy with the requirements then don't go. Work would be an option, although not so much time off is allowed for attending demonstrations!  |
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Post by pappy on Nov 30, 2010 20:01:03 GMT
No Dave I don`t think University should be free, I don`t agree with the rise and I don`t see why we should have to pay more to covor the goverments mistakes of over-spending. I dont think the Lib Dems shoud be going back on thier word. Stdets do get a good deal but students find it tough as it is. I`m lucky enough to have a part-time job, but I also have college and I havent had a today was the first time in 3/4 weeks where I have had a day off college and work. Jobs are so hard to come by and if students find part-time jobs while thier at uni it`ll add strain but is necessery. Students shouldnt get it free but the goverment shouldnt rise fees on us. These protests are only going to get worse if the lib-dems vote for it. Young people wont stop till they get heard.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2010 20:08:47 GMT
Joe do you believe £9.000 comes anywhere close for one years eduction at uni? I would say the cost is far greater and at the cost students are being asked to pay( if they earn enough later) it is so heavily subsidised its not true.
You are being ask only to pay a stake in your future and only pay if it you make it. As Stefano said, its a choice and one any student does not have to take if they don't like the terms.
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Post by Bayern Gull on Nov 30, 2010 20:11:20 GMT
A few things to add here . . .
Anyone going to a bank to secure a mortgage with the kind of debt mentioned hanging over them is going to be seriously disadvantaged. Also, most of the jobs requiring a degree are located in areas with high property prices.
Discouraging people from attending higher education is a dangerous practice for several reasons:
1) It will lessen the number of jobs available to people who achieved lower academic standards as people who previously would have gone to university stay in their local areas and take first pick of the entry level jobs. This is especially true for Torbay. In the past going into some of the banks was like attending a TBGS reunion.
2) Other countries are turning out a tremendous number of graduates and, due to the communication possibilities that have recently opened up, will be well pßlaced to take many jobs currently done in the UK. In the past couple of years I've worked in China, India and Central America and the story is the same in all these places; a motivated and talented workforce ready to take on the whatever challenges are thrown at them. Now is a very bad time to be de-motivating our young people. The virtual rooms you used to see on science fiction films have in fact been around for a couple of years now and are helping to drive jobs to these countries at an ever faster rate. Britain needs to compete by having motivated and high-performing graduates.
3) It's not fair to say the education is free. If somebody gets a well-paid job then they will pay higher-rate tax. It's well known that the people earning over the higher-taxation limit but below six figures pay a higher proportion of their income in tax than any other group. Having said that, not too many graduates leaving university today will get to the higher taxation limit any time soon.
4) Don't forget about pensions. Many of the members of this forum will be collecting their pensions at the age of 65 (or sooner) and in some cases they will have so-called "final salary" schemes. I actually fall into both of these groups but todays young people will get access to neither one of them. It's even possible they will never retire. At the same time though they will be paying for all our pensions, health-care etc. etc. The more money they earn the more tax they will pay so I say that everything possible should be done to help them.
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Post by pappy on Nov 30, 2010 20:12:09 GMT
humph, I just dont agree with it and dot like it and hopefully the goverment wont put it through not only because it`s wrong, because the violence it will cause is not worth the hassle. I wll end of going to uni but not for a while.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2010 20:17:37 GMT
humph, I just dont agree with it and dot like it and hopefully the goverment wont put it through not only because it`s wrong, because the violence it will cause is not worth the hassle. I wll end of going to uni but not for a while. If it ends up in violence Joe, then any support the students may have will soon be lost. After reading the views of Bayern Gull I agree we do need to help our young people, but just how do we go about trying to pay for it all. |
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Post by pappy on Nov 30, 2010 20:21:00 GMT
I know Dave which is why they shouldn`t raise them, and some good points by Bayern.
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Nov 30, 2010 21:10:44 GMT
tufc01 - Won't your youngest owe £27k on fees, plus whatever is loaned for living expenses? That is what is being proposed, isn't it? Preferred the previous ideas of the LibDems to impose a Graduate tax, myself. Rob, yes that is what is being proposed and like I said the youngest will owe £27,000, and as you said, plus what is loaned for living expenses. By the time the younger one goes the increased tuition fees will be in, so will this stop her? No it won’t, admittedly if she pays £9000 per year she will owe £27,000 on completion, I absolutely agree with you regarding the proposed Graduate tax, I believe this would be a much better proposal and would benefit the students in the short term as it would be free at the point of delivery, which would mean no debt as such. Also over the long term it is probable that they will not pay so much back. I did hear that the tax would be somewhere between 0.5% & 2.5% and be payable for up to 20 years. Again I don’t remember exactly what the proposals were but loosely based on the worst case scenario, 2.5% over 20 years, and doing really rough sums, they would need to earn £50,000 per year for the 20 years before they paid back £27,000. Surely because it’s a ‘tax’ it could be easily collected, surely a different tax code issued? Or maybe its not as easy as that. One thing I haven’t seen discussed is whether the graduate tax would be paid on ALL jobs. Say the graduate is unable to find a job and ends up working in Tesco on minimum wage, do they then still pay the tax or is it only when they get a graduate job. I would rather hope it was the latter. |
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