merse
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Post by merse on Oct 27, 2010 23:41:57 GMT
I've been watching Newcastle v Arsenal on Sky+ with a lot of interest tonight. Not because former Gull Michael Williamson was playing, but to study the progress of Nile Ranger ~ a friend of Anthony's cousin Arnold, with whom he was a team mate at the Broadwater United Football Academy which I've previously mentioned on here. Nile is 19 now, and made it in the professional game against all the odds as he was a troubled youngster; who as soon as he got signed to join the Southampton FC Academy received a gaol sentence for armed robbery committed some time before. Nile was allowed to take up his place on release from custody but it wasn't a good start to life in Hampshire and he was soon released with a bad reputation. It was then that Dennis Wise stepped in and offered him a fresh start on Tyneside which he took with both hands and was then awarded an initial three year contract by then Newcastle United manager Alan Shearer. Having read whilst disagreeing with some posters on here who have proposed other young footballing offenders be ostracised from the game, I would point to Nile's progress and development into, not only a young England striker (he's an England U19 international now); but a Premiership footballer and self sufficient young man too. On the other side from him tonight came one of his old contemporaries, playing for Arsenal............... Jay Emmanuel Thomas, another 19 year old (from Forest Gate) who is filling out into becoming a frightening physical specimen of a man and a fine footballer also. Another youngster who I have followed with interest for the past few years as he has emerged from the Arsenal Academy where he joined from playing for his father's youth side in the sort of football my son now plays in. I've seen many youngsters from disadvantaged and poor family backgrounds making good of their lives through football these past few years, and those who show discomfort with the FACT that such youngsters might not have lead the clean living and pleasant sort of lives that they would wish them to; need to acknowledge that often the inner pain and toughness of these kids is what enables them to rise above others of equal ability when the chips are down.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Oct 28, 2010 7:23:33 GMT
I think this is a example whereby football can used as a force for good. With armed robbery on the CV at such a tender age, there is not going to be much opportunity for meaningful employment elsewhere and surely a teenager deserves a second chance? The alternative is probably bleak both for him and society as a whole.
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Post by stefano on Oct 28, 2010 8:00:43 GMT
I think this is a example whereby football can used as a force for good. With armed robbery on the CV at such a tender age, there is not going to be much opportunity for meaningful employment elsewhere and surely a teenager deserves a second chance? The alternative is probably bleak both for him and society as a whole. I don't disagree at all with what you say Rob and I am surprisingly liberal minded, but what would convince me that he is now a mature and responsible adult would be if he regularly donated a large proportion of his excessive premiership wages to compensate those he stole from and to charities for the similarly disadvantaged. There are many many disadvantaged kids who never commit a crime, so now he has been given a second chance in a lucrative profession hopefully he will choose to put his money to good use rather than line the pockets of the bookies. My working title for this fictional post is 'Flying Pigs', but I would love my cynicism to be proved wrong.
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merse
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Post by merse on Oct 28, 2010 8:19:11 GMT
I can't comment on any extent to which Nile has put anything back into the infrastructure from which he emerged because I simply don't know. I'll do my best to find out if he has and come back on that subject, and I'll be at Broadwater again in just over a week's time I remember last year chatting to a coach of the famous Senrab FC, the East End club who have produced so many England internationals (over 30) and many other professional footballers including Adebayo Akinfenwa and he told me how dismayed he was that so many of those they started on their careers have never bothered to enquire and see if there is anything they can do to assist the club carry on it's good work, either financially or with personal support. "That shouldn't take away from those who do though" , he added and I know that many of those who are so positive have done so on the understanding that their financial backing has been kept confidential.................so it is unfair to generalise in either direction in my opinion. Bayo himself fell foul of the law when he was a teenager and moved away from Hackney pretty sharpish and began his football career in Latvia of all places!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Oct 28, 2010 9:24:25 GMT
Stefano, I would say that he is only just starting along the path of becoming a mature and responsible adult. Whether he appreciates how lucky he is and the fantastic opportunity he has and wants to give something back is another thing. At least he is contributing towards society via tax etc as opposed to taking out.
The issue of how these young man deal with their shed load of money and the temptations that come along is another area of debate.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 28, 2010 9:56:12 GMT
Going to add my rhoughts on this when i get home got no chance doinig it on my phone sat here in a layby near yeovil right time to. head for wsm ;D
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 28, 2010 16:58:38 GMT
My own view on second chances are they should always be given as long as the person feels remorse for what they did, pays the price by doing the required punishment and wants to make a fresh start on the right path.
It is then down to that person to take the chance that is on offer and I’m afraid there is a limit I would personally give anyone on more chances because some will never learn and their promises end up only empty ones.
Not sure I buy into the statement that he rose above others of equal ability when the chips were down as the chips were only really down surely by his own making? As Stefano said there are many many disadvantaged kids who never commit a crime and this young man had the opportunity to say NO like anyone else, but he choose to say YES and I wonder if he had not been caught if he would have committed another crime.
As someone expected to end up in jail due to a poor childhood I know full well the real risks of going off the rails and how easy would it have been to blame my circumstances for any crime I committed. But I like everyone else knew right from wrong and was not weak inside and had the strength to say NO and sorry it’s those who find themselves in disadvantaged circumstances and do not go down the road of crime I have more respect for as they are the ones who show the real inner strength.
Don’t get me wrong I’m very happy this young man has the chance to turn is life around and I hope he is able and willing to use some of the money he earns to help other disadvantaged people and I’m sure Merse you would say he should be allowed to get on and try and take this opportunity and not be reminded of his past or keep having it thrown in his face.
I say that only because I know a young man who made a very big mistake and was saved from going to prison because it would have ruined his young life when we was working hard to try and make something of himself when for him learning was something much harder than most other people. He felt remorse and with only very limited earnings paid back every single penny he stole and as far as I know to date has never done anything like it again. Not sure that young man was allowed to try and move on and forget what he did by some and if we are expected to be generous to someone who committed armed robbery and wish him well and keep our fingers crossed he takes the opportunity on offer, then we also need to show the same generosity to other young men who made a mistake and want to move on and take the second chance they have been given.
I think most reasonable people will not hold someone’s past against them if they are genuinely trying to become a better person and become a good member of the community as at the end of the day we all need at times the power of forgiveness and if we can’t find that in our hearts then everyone who ever made a mistake would end up condemned for life and never even get that second chance.
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Post by stefano on Oct 28, 2010 17:00:42 GMT
Going to add my rhoughts on this when i get home got no chance doinig it on my phone sat here in a layby near yeovil right time to. head for wsm ;D I shall be glad when you and Merse have made up as your current Avatar gives me a headache Dave!! Bring back that cute little kid!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 28, 2010 17:04:52 GMT
Going to add my thoughts on this when i get home got no chance doing it on my phone sat here in a lay by near yeovil right time to. head for wsm ;D I shall be glad when you and Merse have made up as your current Avatar gives me a headache Dave!! Bring back that cute little kid! As far as I know we have not fallen out and my new avatar is only to get the message across I'm here to help fellow members and do not expect to be subjected to abuse, think yourself lucky stefano I nearly used the one you found scary
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Post by stefano on Oct 28, 2010 17:09:52 GMT
I shall be glad when you and Merse have made up as your current Avatar gives me a headache Dave!! Bring back that cute little kid! As far as I know we have not fallen out and my new avatar is only to get the message across I'm here to help fellow members and do not expect to be subjected at abuse, think yourself lucky stefano I nearly used the one you found scary I'd forgotten that one and I suppose I ought not to keep mentioning the cute little kid or I could find myself under investigation! ;D
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 28, 2010 17:12:05 GMT
You can have him back latter tonight
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Oct 28, 2010 17:51:17 GMT
I'm here to help fellow members and do not expect to be subjected to abuse And hopefully not be abusive to fellow members by stating that their opinions are "rubbish" or "a totally ridiculous thing to say" or similar.
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merse
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Post by merse on Oct 28, 2010 17:55:42 GMT
Not sure I buy into the statement that he rose above others of equal ability when the chips were down as the chips were only really down surely by his own making? Are you aware that I was saying: "that often the inner pain and toughness of these kids is what enables them to rise above others of equal ability when the chips are down" referred to their rising to the top of a very competitive and difficult football environment where only a very small percentage of young aspirants "make it"? If you re-read my post with more care you will also noice that I said "I've seen many youngsters from disadvantaged and poor family backgrounds making good of their lives through football" I'm talking here about those from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds, I'm not talking about criminal records. I'm talking about the kids who's parent or parents can't afford the monetary outlay to equip their kids, to enrol their kids, to pay their monthly clubs fees, to get them to matches; I'm talking about those with parents who haven't an earthly clue as to their child's potential even because their own lives are so wrapped up in merely surviving that they haven't either the time nor the will to focus on their child's football talent...................believe me, I see and help many of them. Hardly any of them have ever come into conflict with the law. The only mention I made of Nile's criminal past (he partook of a knife related mugging at a cash point with a gang of others) was at the beginning of the post in response to those who would have young players who have offended not be allowed the chance to protect and share their talent for football whilst in prison. Neither you nor I "know" if his "chips" were down purely through his own doing. I am not party to his family background nor are you. What I do know is that (as I illustrated a couple of weeks ago) in that tough environment of Broadwater Farm there are many kids of exceptional talent who have come through against the odds thanks to the inspired mentoring of Clasford Stirling to rise to the top of the football struggle, and many more who haven't; who have gone on to become very useful and inspiring coaches and mentors in their own right and thus are helping others. So yes, he certainly has risen above others of equal ability; as have just about all other professional sportsmen, and into the bargain he has achieved that from a pretty horrific period in his life that threatened to undermine all that talent and determination ~ even if it was by his own doing. I don't think anyone around him has pretended that he never committed that crime, and I don't think for a minute that he pretends he didn't commit it either.
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Post by stefano on Oct 28, 2010 17:57:27 GMT
I'm here to help fellow members and do not expect to be subjected to abuse And hopefully not be abusive to fellow members by stating that their opinions are "rubbish" or "a totally ridiculous thing to say" or similar. Perhaps I am just a bit thick skinned Rags but I wouldn't take either of those expressions as being 'abusive' if directed at me. I never have any problem if people disagree with me, and they frequently do the b******s!.
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Post by lambethgull on Oct 28, 2010 18:15:57 GMT
Not sure I buy into the statement that he rose above others of equal ability when the chips were down as the chips were only really down surely by his own making? As Stefano said there are many many disadvantaged kids who never commit a crime and this young man had the opportunity to say NO like anyone else, but he choose to say YES and I wonder if he had not been caught if he would have committed another crime. As someone expected to end up in jail due to a poor childhood I know full well the real risks of going off the rails and how easy would it have been to blame my circumstances for any crime I committed. But I like everyone else knew right from wrong and was not weak inside and had the strength to say NO and sorry it’s those who find themselves in disadvantaged circumstances and do not go down the road of crime I have more respect for as they are the ones who show the real inner strength. We can all point to people who lead a good an honest life despite a disadvantaged start in life, just as we can point to people who lead bad and dishonest lives despite having every advantage as a child. What determines a person's propensity to commit crimes or transgress societal norms? Environmental factors such as upbringing, peer pressure, schooling play a part, but so too does a person's genetic makeup. The influence a child has on his environmental inheritance is minimal; the influence a child has on his genetic inheritance is zero. What if a person is born without the capacity or an 'impaired' capacity for empathy, guilt, remorse or the ability to choose right from wrong? Some will say that this line of argument gives a free pass to every prospective criminal or criminal, but judging a person by his actions surely means nothing unless you are in a position to understand the person who makes them. Saying "Well I never chose the wrong path" just doesn't cut it for me. I know nothing of Nile Ranger (superb name btw!) or his past. But I agree with rjdgull that his contribution as a professional footbller through the tax system is likely to be a good deal more than it would be if he were to be left scratching and scraping around at the margins of society doing 'penance'.
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