Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2010 17:07:59 GMT
 In fact Flo' you haven't debated at all. you have failed to answer ONE question I put to you and you have carried on arguing on another obtuse point all together, namely how wonderful the military are; when that has never been called into question. You respond as if the calibre of the military has been sullied as if their diligence towards their duty has been queried................disrespected even. Clearly this is not the point of issue, not from me or anyone else. The point of issue is the conduct of Margaret Thatcher during her premiership and the subsequent conduct of Tony B Liar and his chicanery over the Iraq War. That is the debate, why are you banging on about soldiers?  Unfortunately I reacted to your churlish comment about the Falkland’s; clearly a place you have never set foot on, when you described it as ‘a windswept rock' not worth defending against Argentine aggression. I have already explained why I bristled at that comment. I apologise for the personal insult. My mitigation is that most squaddies, serving or ex, tend to act first and worry about any consequences later. That said, you obviously haven't read my replies properly, as I stated I don't care who governs the country. It always goes the same way; the newly-elected party tries to sort out the mess from the previous incumbents, which then goes off course itself, and ends up losing power to the opposition, which then becomes the government, and the cycle starts again. The main thing I remember from Maggie’s era, aside from the Falkland’s, was that everyone I knew had shed loads of cash, giving rise to characters like 'Loadsamoney'. And at the end of the ‘eighties, every one of my family, across 3 generations, was in a better place than at the beginning of the decade. Does that make me a Thatcherite? No. But looking at the state of the country after 13 years of Labour, that sure ain't gonna make me a Blair/Brownite either. I’ll say no more, as arguing over politics isn’t for me, so I'll withdraw from further comment on this thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2010 17:57:56 GMT
Actually I lied. This is my last post on politics.
Somebody in an earlier post made a very good point about the standard of living in countries that didn’t get sucked in by American rhetoric; may have been Merse. It matters not. Until May this year I spent the previous 9 years living in Germany, as a civilian. My army days are some years past now.
Don’t believe all the stuff about a global recession. Didn’t happen in Germany. I compare where Germany is now to the UK and the US. Both UK and US are bankrupt effectively, and I cannot be the only person to link that to the billions of $/£’s poured into the unwinnable war in Afghanistan and previously Iraq. Whilst UK and US were doing so, Germany carried on sweeping its streets, repairing its roads, building new schools, new hospitals, new libraries, etc, whilst conversely in UK education projects and new builds get cancelled, and the National Health Service continues to slide.
And the reason why the credit crunch bypassed Germany is not because there is no credit in Germany. There is. The difference is that Germans tend to live within their means so rely on credit less. And when they get the loans, Germans spend the funds in the country. They buy German cars, German white goods, German TV’s, etc., simply because the quality is there. This demand fuels supply, creates jobs, reduces dependence on welfare and gives the Government full tax coffers to spend in country. Plus, all this money circulating in the economy leads to the standard of living being higher for everyone. In UK loans get spent on similar things; unfortunately they are spent on German or Japanese goods and cars. In all cases the money goes out of the country to bolster someone else’s economy. No jobs are created in UK and reliance on welfare increases.
Merse said don’t mention ‘Broken Britain’ but the problem is that Britain is broken. Until the education system produces people with the skills to be successful in adult life, and the mentality of living off welfare is altered, and British companies produce goods that British people are prepared to buy, Britain will remain broken. That is where we need a strong government. Maybe, against the odds, the C&C Coalition will finally deliver what’s required.
Right, enough said. It is a lovely sunny day here and I have a pool to sit beside (and maybe get in later) and a case of beer to make a dent in.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 25, 2010 18:53:56 GMT
Somebody in an earlier post made a very good point about the standard of living in countries that didn’t get sucked in by American rhetoric; may have been Merse. It matters not. Until May this year I spent the previous 9 years living in Germany, as a civilian. My army days are some years past now.
Don’t believe all the stuff about a global recession. Didn’t happen in Germany. I compare where Germany is now to the UK and the US. Both UK and US are bankrupt effectively, and I cannot be the only person to link that to the billions of $/£’s poured into the unwinnable war in Afghanistan and previously Iraq. Yes it WAS me and your post ilustrates the point I was making perfectly and your illustration of Germans spending their money on German goods needs to be followed by asking just who shut down all the British based industry so that we have no choice but to increase the natinal balanc eof payments and have to buy imported goods. Thankyou Mad Thatcher and Co for flogging us our council houses, but building no replacements, thankyou for leaving us better off for a decade, but with a long term legacy of our raw materials now being imported from the Third World and Eastern Europe. Thankyou for tying ourselves to the great American Bullshit Brigade and now having to live in hock for doing so. |
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Post by kipper on Sept 25, 2010 18:57:11 GMT
Actually I lied. This is my last post on politics. Your assessment of a Serviceman and there mind-set is spot on and I would challenge anyone on here if they ever argued against that.............but have not seen the same. We are what we are, whether a fisherman, a carpenter or even an ex-policeman with a foreign sounding Christian name!! Most debate's like a coin are two sided, I believe the thread was intended as a political debate................ your posts are patriot. And don't be upset by "he who sits up high", he refused to come out with us for our weekly walk on Friday, I presume because he won POTW and would not of been able to get his head up the stairs of the local route-master!! But I am still smiling, even if FCSP also lost 1-3 at home  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2010 19:51:32 GMT
Somebody in an earlier post made a very good point about the standard of living in countries that didn’t get sucked in by American rhetoric; may have been Merse. It matters not. Until May this year I spent the previous 9 years living in Germany, as a civilian. My army days are some years past now.
Don’t believe all the stuff about a global recession. Didn’t happen in Germany. I compare where Germany is now to the UK and the US. Both UK and US are bankrupt effectively, and I cannot be the only person to link that to the billions of $/£’s poured into the unwinnable war in Afghanistan and previously Iraq. Yes it WAS me and your post ilustrates the point I was making perfectly and your illustration of Germans spending their money on German goods needs to be followed by asking just who shut down all the British based industry so that we have no choice but to increase the natinal balanc eof payments and have to buy imported goods. Thankyou Mad Thatcher and Co for flogging us our council houses, but building no replacements, thankyou for leaving us better off for a decade, but with a long term legacy of our raw materials now being imported from the Third World and Eastern Europe. Thankyou for tying ourselves to the great American Bullshit Brigade and now having to live in hock for doing so. I am not disagreeing with what you say, Merse, but Maggie got shoved aside 20 years ago or so. Bliar had nearly as long at the helm as Maggie, and Labour had 13 years to reverse her policies, but still failed to do so. I'm not sticking up for any party but it does illustrate in reality my belief that there is nothing to choose between either party. |
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 25, 2010 21:08:31 GMT
'Broken Britain' is bollocks. Our problems are well documented, but most of the grumbling and doomsday scenarios come from bitter expats who no longer live here and middle-aged folk whose day has been and gone. The UK took a major hit from the banking crisis because of the size of its finance sector, but don't believe it's all sweetness and light in Europe's two biggest economies. The storm caused by the collapse of the Greek economy (which Germany is propping up) is a foretaste for it of what's to come unless major changes are made or the economies of its Eurozone partners improve. The French may enjoy enviable standards of living, but will pay big time for its aging population, lack of immigration and inflexible labour market. Quite who the French imagine is going to pay for their pensions, healthcare and generous benefit entitlements in years to come is a mystery.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 25, 2010 21:08:37 GMT
Maggie got shoved aside 20 years ago or so. Bliar had nearly as long at the helm as Maggie, and Labour had 13 years to reverse her policies, but still failed to do so.
I'm not sticking up for any party but it does illustrate in reality my belief that there is nothing to choose between either party. I've never pretended that Labour under B Liar were anything but a vote winning sop to the population of this country who themselves have shown no appetite in any numbers to vote for a properly socially responsible manifesto in recent times. They are not the Labour Party I once belonged to and I have never voted for the them in this period. That they have tonight announced that Ed Miliband rather than his brother David will be the new leader interests me and almost certainly means they will have my vote in the next General Election as his surprising (to me) selection by the party membership signals that the era of "New" Labour is at long last over. I was sure that David Miliband would get the vote, and to be honest I think the UK electorate would still at the moment be more likely to return the party to power under him than Ed. Thank God we can return to the days of a proper left wing political thinker who is radically opposed to the right and who at least has the courage of his convictions and will offer a real alternative to the grinning opportunist B Liar and the old guard of Brown who were so out of touch with the members of society who need Labour most. Having a leader is NOT just about electing someone who will win an election, it is about having someone who will genuinely lead a school of thought in the political arena. A proper Labour Party can achieve a lot more for those people out of power than a faux "New" Labour ever could in power. Ed Miliband owes his success to the backing of the Trades Unions who remain as a very real part of the Labour movement and the rank and file membership who subscribe to party funds................ NOT the MPs who clearly wanted his brother David and NOT the fashionista "Islingtonite Factor" who are little better than Tories themselves. You will now have your proper choice to make when the next election is called which I reckon will be in little over a year once this Lame Duck Coalition falls apart. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 25, 2010 21:17:18 GMT
And here hopefully ends the party political broadcast by merse on behalf of the labour party, could not believe it when i got home from todays match to find only posts made about bloody politics, can we give it a rest now and get back to talking about football  |
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 25, 2010 21:27:02 GMT
And here hopefully ends the party political broadcast by merse on behalf of the labour party, could not believe it when i got home from todays match to find only posts made about bloody politics, can we give it a rest now and get back to talking about football Not being funny Dave, but it must be bad enough talking about today's game having actually been there...what incentive is there to talk about it having not been there? |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 25, 2010 21:30:23 GMT
Well make it a football only forum then and stop celebrating the eclectic nature of TFF, but you'll more than halve your contributions to this great hall of debate. It was YOUR Tory friend Chelston who opened this thread and then contributed nothing of worthwhile note to it wasn't it? Don't get on my back for responding and standing my corner...............it's what I do in case you haven't noticed, and why shouldn't others who are interested have their say? ................and who is it Dave who is constantly banging the local anti Tory drum or is Nick Bye a Socialist all of a sudden, I'd swear I caught him saying he was a Tory. I couldn't be even arsed to follow today's game at Plainmoor such is the shite quality of commentary and technical deficiency on the Beeb, so have nothing to contribute on this afternoon's defeat and seemingly poor performance..................sorry about that but that's how it is.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 25, 2010 21:39:53 GMT
The TFF will never ever be just only a football forum merse, as far as I'm concerned they are all as bad as each other and I care not what party Bye belongs too, my problem has only about his ideas and the fact its about only what he wants for Torbay and sod what anyone else wants.
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Sept 25, 2010 21:47:03 GMT
It was YOUR Tory friend Chelston who opened this thread and then contributed nothing of worthwhile note to it wasn't it? I think that this was covered a while back - its unlike you Alan not to keep up  I 'started' this thread in order that we could keep politics out of a bloody & ruddy good Train spotting thread. There was an interesting article in todays HE with a ruddy good picture and info on Warship D848 "Sultan" which if I wasn't working tomorrow I would scan it in. If it wasn't for MY FRIEND Dave I'd reach for the delete button. Please feel free to conduct a poll and I will honour the outcome. Right I'm off to bed (alone) Mrs C has buggered off to her Mum's for the week-end.  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 25, 2010 21:56:03 GMT
There's no need to be easily offended Phil, I'm merely defending the right of people to discuss what they wish, when they wish as this site so proudly proclaims. Perhaps those fortunate enough to be able to go and see a match at Plainmoor might be able to come home and find it already being discussed in an intelligent manner if there was a semblance of coherent and technically reliable coverage to follow it on from afar. Perhaps there would be more in-match interest if there was a semblance of coverage of LAST SATURDAY'S game on the HE site ~ but no, there was nothing; so what does Dave expect whilst a game is going on, people to hang on every word from a dribbling incoherent "commentator" whilst they anticipating the link being lost yet again? Your 'avin a larf mate!
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Sept 25, 2010 21:57:04 GMT
I don’t normally join in political debate as I normally find myself out of my depth rather quickly as I don’t really have very strong political allegiances to any politician or party, however this has strayed into an area where I did have a very small interest in. There have been several points raised throughout this thread and I have tried to get all my opinions on this one reply. what the feck did THAT achieve save divert attention away from a bunch of senile old reactionaries waging class war on their own people? We went to war with Argentina over a wind blown piece of rock in the South Atlantic? Winston Churchill must have been laughing in his grave ~ we'd have been better off going to war with the moon for daring to "go out" once a month! No we didn’t go to war over a wind blown piece of rock in the South Atlantic, we went to war because a foreign force invaded a British Dependant Territory that is inhabited by British people. Over 80% are of British dependants, probably more than this country at the moment. It may well be a bleak place, but then so is Dartmoor in the winter and if anyone wants a small appreciation of what the Falklands is like then that is not a bad picture to conjure up in your mind. The argument over whether it should have been or even remain as a British Dependant Territory is a separate argument. In 1983 it WAS a British Dependant Territory and therefore an invasion by a foreign force is an attack on British soil regardless of whereabouts in the world it happens to be. Trust me the Falklanders consider themselves to be just as British as you and I. I spent 6 months in the Falklands in 1987 onboard HMS Dumbarton Castle. Our job was to visit all the hamlets and out crops around the Islands and we got to meet a fair few of the Islanders, EVERY one of them to a T really were so appreciative of what their country had done for them 4 years earlier. They were at great pains to say how British they were and we were welcomed into their homes with open arms. A really nice and friendly bunch of people who whilst they remain in a British Dependant Territory are surely entitled to the same amount of protection from an invasion force as you and I and our families are??Admittedly when I was sent down there on a Christmas Eve flight from Brize Norton barely 2 months after getting married I to questioned why on earth I was going there. Ironically I did enquire as to why I was being sent there as at the time you were able to fill in a form where you stated your preference for your next drafting/posting. As I was due a ‘preferred draft’ I was expecting a Devonport based ship and as an area to avoid, I ticked the ‘Avoid Scotland’ box, so was surprised when I was posted to the Falklands Island Patrol Ship, the answer that came back was “how much further from Scotland does he want to be” ;D Also the moon, to the best of my knowledge, is not a British Dependant Territory so why would we go to war with it. We watched this unfold in Australia and it was deffo about oil mate, Whilst it could be said that the Invasion of Iraq was ‘deffo’ about oil, the same cannot be said about the Falklands. I don’t believe for one minute that the decision was taken with mining oil at the top of the agenda, or anywhere on it at all. On an aside I often wonder whether Mugabe would still be in power if Zimbabwe was laden with Oil reserves, but that’s a debate for a different thread. Back to the Falklands, In my very humble opinion I believe that Churchill would most definitely had done the same thing as Margaret Thatcher had. Out of interest I genuinely would be interested to know what those that disagreed with the falklands war would like to have seen happen. Rather than just say it was wrong, what would have been their preferred option. I also spent 3 years in Gibraltar, another British territory and they also believe themselves to be British. I doubt very much that there is any oil to be found around there, so does that mean if they were invaded we wouldn’t bother about them?? Or because they are so far away then we wouldn’t bother or if we didn’t like the PM of the time then we shouldn’t. Surely the decision is cut and dried, if ANY British Dependant Territory is EVER invaded then we MUST fight to protect ours and their rights, regardless of who is Prime Minister at the time. As I said earlier the argument about whether these countries should be/remain British is a separate argument. My opinion is that we ABSOLUTELY did the right thing in the Falklands and I would be prepared to argue the case for and defend that decision until the cows come home. In my 25 years service in the Navy I never met anyone who thought differently. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 25, 2010 22:16:04 GMT
Whilst it could be said that the Invasion of Iraq was ‘deffo’ about oil, the same cannot be said about the Falklands. I don’t believe for one minute that the decision was taken with mining oil at the top of the agenda, or anywhere on it at all. I respect your point of view TUFC1 and you have made a very valid argument FOR the decision to intervene militarily. I happen to hold an alternative viewpoint and whislt I don't make it expecting to gain the majority of support for it, it is a point held by a considerable number of people that miltary intervention was too readily seized upon with a diversionary zeal before any care of duty for the Falkland Islanders.................and yes, what the hell are we doing maintaining that place if it were not for the oil lobby and was Dennis Thatcher not an "Oil Millionaire"? He was certainly an appalling old reactionary who attempted to discredit the Anti Apartheid sporting boycott of South Africa and described the BBC as being "run by poofs and Trots" ~ very enlightening and indicative of the class of people Thatcher represented. |
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I 'started' this thread in order that we could keep politics out of a bloody & ruddy good Train spotting thread. 