Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 12, 2010 9:37:32 GMT
And merse, Howard Webb was a disgrace for failing to give the Dutch a corner, instead it ended up in the back of the net on the other side of the pitch... BTW, did anyone see them trying to get players booked by asking for cards? Just a couple of points I'd like to raise on this: Ospelgull, it's a bit strong to accuse Webb of being a disgrace for not awarding the corner. Webb had set his position for the free kick when Elia moved from the wall to the ball and then towards Webb, waving his hands to complain about the Spanish wall not being back far enough. Webb took two steps forward in the direction of the wall at which point Sneijder took the free kick. If the Dutch want to complain about the wrong decision being made, perhaps they'd like to ask Elia why he was distracting the referee's attention from the free kick itself. Webb was also on the same side of the wall that the deflection came from which makes it harder (but not impossible) to spot any deviation in flight. Yes it was an error but it wasn't a disgrace. From the resultant goal kick, the Dutch got the ball back, only to return it to the Spanish when Elia tried to dive between two defenders to get a free kick. From that point the Dutch touched the ball four times before Iniesta billowed the rigging, so its not as if they didn't have enough chances to prevent the goal. Secondly, I was also amazed at the number of players holding imaginary cards up to Webb - I noticed Iniesta doing it most but he might not have been the worst culprit. I was under the impression that UEFA brought in a rule in 2006 that waving an imaginary card at a ref was, itself, a bookable offence but that doesn't appear to have made it as far as FIFA, or maybe its been repealed. Or maybe Webb was under strict instructions by FIFA to keep at least 22 players on the pitch for aas long as possible in order that their precious final should not degenerate into a farce played between 7 Dutchmen and 9 Spaniards,or having to be abandoned due to too few players being on the pitch. Whichever way we look at the refereeing performance of Howard Webb, Robben was clear through on goal twice and Fabregas once, both failing to win the Final for their respective teams before the Iniesta winner. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 10:15:20 GMT
Howard Webb was a disgrace for failing to give the Dutch a corner, instead it ended up in the back of the net on the other side of the pitch...  Quite right, if you live by the sword of distracting and interfering with the match officials, then be prepared to die by that sword when they make a mistake through being distracted. I think Howard Webb DID make a lot of concessions in the greater interest of FIFA's prestige and the world wide image of football generally. It was the Dutch who desecrated that final and to go crying to mummy over such a thing as you highlight Ospel just sums up the modern day Durtch phenominum of stamping their feet and sulking whenever they are prevented from getting their own way. I saw a team of Dutch youngsters in a tournament recently (not the Cruyff Academy team I hasten to add) and I can tell you they brought howls of derision upon themselves for behaving in exactly the same way as your national team did last night. A goalkeeper in tears because he let a goal in and subsequently refusing to make any effort to take possession of the next pass back he received. A brutal waist high "tackle" on a young Spanish (yes the final of that tournie was indeed "Spain" v "Holland") opponent immediately following the concession of that goal; and refusing to accept losing that final in good grace and declining to shake hands with the opposition or match officials and one player even throwing his runners up medal on the floor when he received it. As a nation you HAVE to sort out this spoilt brat mentality in order to even think about regaining the respect and admiration your football once had. Don't expect a referee to make a bad game a good one, and stop making a laughing stock out of yourselves! |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 10:29:54 GMT
By the way....................despite their "physical deficiencies", Spain managed to successfully execute 89% of their tackles last night in direct contrast to the Dutch who's own ratio was well below that! ;D
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 12, 2010 10:43:09 GMT
By the way....................despite their "physical deficiencies", Spain managed to successfully execute 89% of their tackles last night in direct contrast to the Dutch who's own ratio was well below that! ;D Was that because the Dutch weren't going into a tackle with the intention of making contact with the ball?  |
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Post by jeremyb on Jul 12, 2010 10:52:48 GMT
The end of an underwhelming World Cup for me, but it did throw up one big issue for discussion:
How much does Wayne Carlisle look like Marc Van Bommel?!
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 11:02:41 GMT
How much does Wayne Carlisle look like Marc Van Bommel?! A bit more than he looks like Nelson Mandela!  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 11:09:11 GMT
The end of an underwhelming World Cup for me, but it did throw up one big issue for discussion: Well my big talking point was the apparent age of Ashley Giles' wife, but at least the Queen of Spain managed to leap to her feet as the ball hit the back of the Dutch net. Not surprised really as the Dutch are a bit rude about the Spanish in their national anthem, mind you I couldn't see old Betty jigging about like that if England/Germany or Greece scored.  |
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Post by ospelgull on Jul 12, 2010 12:22:46 GMT
Merse, me a laughing stock why? Rags, maybe I was a bit harsh on Webb but it was indeed a huge mistake which cost the Dutch, fact. That goal wouldn't have gone in if the Dutch were rewarded a corner. There are officials on and besides the pitch who missed that cornerball. It's not rocket science is it? Any team would have reacted in the same manner at such "injustice". And btw it has nothing to do with how the Dutch played. About the behaviour that you describe, it is new for me? You just can't label a complete nation just because the national team behaved badly in ONE half of ONE game and of some youth team that you saw play.  Whinging is global nowadays, even in England a country famous for it's sportsmanship! |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 13:29:33 GMT
Merse, me a laughing stock why?
You just can't label a complete nation just because the national team behaved badly in ONE half of ONE game and of some youth team that you saw play. Re-read the post, I said yourselves (plural) not yourself (singular) ..............and that "some youth team" was representing your national (KNVB) football federation in the national colours ~ just like their petulant and ungracious "big brothers" were yesterday. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2010 14:33:05 GMT
lambethgull asks I think you only have to look back as far as the semi final. In my opinion Puyols winner against Germany was as fine a bullet header as we'd seen in the whole tournament.  Carles Puyol leaps to fire a bullet header into the back of Manuel Neuer's net ( and that's not my description it's the one used by several national newspapers) www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/spain-head-to-final-thanks-to-puyols-sledgehammer-2021060.html?action=PopupI did think Howard Webb had a very difficult task last night. As is often the case in finals Ref's are slightly more reticent in issuing red cards. If he'd taken a less lenient line with some of the Dutch challenges in the first half no questions over a possible corner for the Dutch would have arisen , as I doubt the remaiing 8 or 9 Dutchmen left on the field would have got out of their own penalty box let alone their own half. The Dutch approach did disappoint me. While it is quite understandable that as a nation they must feel a little frustrated at coming so close to being champions over the decades without quite making it , I still think the over physical tactics won them few friends. Despite never claiming the top prize players such as Cruyff , Neeskens , Rensenbrink , Krol , & a personal favourite of mine Johnny Rep are fondly regarded & admired not only in their own country but by football fans throughout the world. If last nights team had succeeded in kicking it's way to victory I'm not sure the modern team would have been anywhere near as well respected worldwide in years to come as their predecessors who earned Holland a fabulous reputation in World football even if the World Cup trophy always eluded them. |
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 12, 2010 14:41:37 GMT
Rags, maybe I was a bit harsh on Webb but it was indeed a huge mistake which cost the Dutch, fact. That goal wouldn't have gone in if the Dutch were rewarded a corner. There are officials on and besides the pitch who missed that cornerball. It's not rocket science is it? Any team would have reacted in the same manner at such "injustice". And btw it has nothing to do with how the Dutch played. Ha, ha! No, you're right: it is indeed a FACT that the goal wouldn't have gone in if the Dutch were awarded a corner. But that's simple cause and effect: the goal wouldn't have gone in had Robben scored from one of his two breakaways, either but that doesn't mean that Holland would have won. In fact, there is every possibility that Casillas could have caught the resultant corner and thrown it out to Navas who could have skipped through three tackles and passed to Iniesta, who could have laid the ball off to Fabregas, through to Navas again and on to Torres on the left. Torres could have crossed the ball which could have been to be cut out by Van der Vaart, but only as far as Fabregas who could have passed to Iniesta to flick up and volley home. In this alternative reality, this goal would have been about 30 seconds before the time of the real goal that was scored but the result would have been the same, and it would have happened because Howard Webb correctly gave a corner from the deflected free-kick.. Alternatively, maybe Braafheid could have tackled Navas more effectively so that the ball didn't end up at Iniesta's feet; or maybe Braafheid needn't have followed the ball over to the right back position leaving a large gap for Iniesta to stroll into; or maybe had Van der Vaart not had his hand up appealing for offside (it's not cricket, you know) when Torrres' cross came over he could have played the ball to the "infinite number of other places" that were on offer apart from straight at Fabregas. It's much easier to blame the officials for not giving a corner as the reason the Dutch lost the World Cup Final - god forbid you might actually place responsibility on the actual players... The Dutch had regained possession of the ball after the disputed corner had not been given so that decision has absolutely no relevance to the scoring of the goal. So, in summary, I disagree entirely with your suggestion that "Any team would have reacted in the same manner at such "injustice"". I don't believe many other teams would see it as an injustice. |
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Post by lambethgull on Jul 12, 2010 14:58:33 GMT
lambethgull asks I think you only have to look back as far as the semi final. In my opinion Puyols winner against Germany was as fine a bullet header as we'd seen in the whole tournament. Carles Puyol leaps to fire a bullet header into the back of Manuel Neuer's net ( and that's not my description it's the one used by several national newspapers) Attentive members would have noted the plural, Joe Seriously, Spain averaged 1.1 goals per game - enough, no doubt, but a pretty paltry haul for a team as exalted as Spain don't you think? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2010 15:25:35 GMT
Not a massive haul of goals I'll grant you that Lambeth. Then again I rather thought Germany & Holland made a priority of defending in numbers against the Spanish & attempting to score themselves on a quick break. In a more open game the Spanish may well be able to rack up as many goals as anyone else & it is probably in recognition of their attacking abilities that they are faced by opponents who use their men to swamp defence & midfield rather than deploy them in an attacking formation against Spain. I was at times surprised to see just how wide on the left David Villa stayed for large portions of matches. With Torres a very pale shadow of the attacking force we know he can be maybe it's even more credit to them in being crowned World Champions without having a glut of in form strikers to call upon.  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 12, 2010 16:18:05 GMT
Question: How many goals do you need to win a game? Answer: One more than the opposition...............end of!
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Post by lambethgull on Jul 12, 2010 17:37:23 GMT
#cavalerie# Question: How many goals do you need to win a game? Answer: One more than the opposition...............end of! Well it is the end if you're trying to claim otherwise ;D I've no doubt about the effectiveness of the Spanish. And anyone who claims a manager should change a successful formula with the players at his disposal to please neutrals or the stylistic fetishes of spectators is making a pretty weak argument in my opinion. All i'm saying is that I don't find them as pleasing to watch as others do. A phrase I heard recently - "Death by a thousand passes" - sums it up rather well for me |
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