merse
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Post by merse on Aug 7, 2008 10:01:38 GMT
Now we know........................ Lee Hodges will be the one to take over should we lose Poke during a game and Rice will be on a 24 hour recall clause. Hodges has the ability, and a track record of having gone in goal before for Argyle; so there really is no problem. Rice will be a better number two for having regular competitive match practice and (I guess) a happier person for the experience. Let's look forward with optimism rather than back with regret. Let's not undermine the manager's credibility nor deny him the respect he is due. Let's celebrate the fact we have acquired the services of an excellent goalkeeper and be relieved we are shot of one with too many deficiencies; and let's be happy that we have an outfield player who has the versatility to allow the manager an extra option with his choice of substitutes..................how many of our rivals can truly claim that?
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 7, 2008 10:39:05 GMT
...................mind you , on of my my Sons in Law socialises with a well known professional goalkeeper who may well not be first choice at his club this season - I'll think I'll pick his brains!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 7, 2008 15:49:12 GMT
Merse while it is good to look forward, one often needs to look back, if only to learn lessons from the past. We were talking about the present, Mr Rice in fact. You made the remark
" Let's hope that another "incident" hasn't lead to one of our keepers being shown the exit door by the manager"!
So you opened the door, not I, yet when I offer you the chance to back up your "incident" claims, you give me what was common knowledge. When I asked the question, why was Rayner brought back, I still never got an answer. Yet the points I made were backed up by the action of Rayners return.
As is often the case in life when some are shown that they maybe not correct in what they are saying, they side track and start coming out with remarks like
"There is no point in raking over old ground"
Well there is, if things are not correctly stated, you see there was nothing so bad that Rayner did, I seem to remember you saying the club did not give their reasons, so as not to scare of any club who might want to sign him. I'm sure any manager would want to know, why a club, near the top spot and looking for promotion, would want to loan out their no1 keeper.
I do not believe I have tried to "undermine the manager's credibility nor deny him the respect he is due" but it takes two to tango and I do worry that at times personality's stand in the way, of what really would be best for the team and club.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 7, 2008 16:25:57 GMT
Dave, I'm not remotely interested why Rayner was brought back except of course that we needed another keeper to see out the season. Like hundreds of other players in my time supporting the club, he's been, he's played and he's left. He had potential, he had ability but he blew it. We replaced him with a very good loan signing which was unluckily cut short and the second loan signing didn't come off so we had to utilise a player still contracted to play for us and now he's been off loaded and life goes on. I'll tell you something, if any other pro' on the books refuses to sit on the bench he can feck off too as far as I'm concerned. A successful club just cannot countainence that sort of anarchy. Clubs where that sort of "player power" goes unchecked go down the toilet I can assure you. OK, so you're the club chairman and you think your , manager's "personality" is standing in the way of what really would be best for club and team. Well as Chairman you deal with it and if you've got any nous you keep it under your hat and between you and your manager. It's not for fans' forums to constantly rake over unproductive tittle tattle without contributing anything but a loss of respect for the manager and his position. Paul Buckle did a very good job for us last season in very difficult circumstances, and I would hope that everyone in any position of substance at Plainmoor recognises that, in fact I'm sure they do. The Bateson regime undermined John Impey soon after he had safely guided the club to promotion by the chairman paying heed to the whingeing of a bunch of "professionals" that clearly weren't good enough to survive at the exalted level to which Imps had got them. The position of club manager was then further undermined by effectively doing away with it and letting the players manage themselves by having two long term injured players put in charge of affairs.....................disaster! Players don't run clubs, neither do fans' forums...............Chairmen run clubs and they employ managers to run football matters. Why can't we leave it at that?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 7, 2008 16:55:42 GMT
I will pick you up on two points on your post.
Firstly.. you state
"Paul Buckle did a very good job for us last season in very difficult circumstances"
That has to be a joke? yes he did a good job for a first year manager, made mistakes that one will hope he has learned from. Just what were the difficult circumstances? I thought Buckle has been the luckiest manager, to come here and have all the support he could have every dreamed of getting.
Just think how far Leroy would have taken us, with just half the support Buckle has had.
Second.....you say
"Players don't run clubs, neither do fans' forums"
No forums do not run the club, they are the place fans can share their views, good or bad A place where you have bad mouthed some managers and players and even those who have run the club in the past. So why should it be OK for you to make remarks about any one at the club, past or present, but not anyone else.
Forums are a place were members can question the actions of the manager, or the club, or even the players, forums are a place to discuss. It can never be just the rosy side of things, there will be times when people will criticize, or want to see events reported correctly.
Buckle like all past managers will be judged only on the results he gets, lets not forget fans thought Leroy was god at Plainmoor once, but that changed. The same could happen to Buckle and If he picks the wrong teams, makes the wrong substitution etc and the team ends up at the bottom of the league, I'm sure we will see different views from you then Merse.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 7, 2008 17:42:04 GMT
I will pick you up on two points on your post. Firstly.. you state "Paul Buckle did a very good job for us last season in very difficult circumstances" That has to be a joke? yes he did a good job for a first year manager, made mistakes that one will hope he has learned from. Just what were the difficult circumstances? I thought Buckle has been the luckiest manager, to come here and have all the support he could have every dreamed of getting. Just think how far Leroy would have taken us, with just half the support Buckle has had. Second.....you say "Players don't run clubs, neither do fans' forums"No forums do not run the club, they are the place fans can share their views, good or bad A place where you have bad mouthed some managers and players and even those who have run the club in the past. So why should it be OK for you to make remarks about any one at the club, past or present, but not anyone else. Firstly, nothing I said about Paul Buckle or his achievements last season are a joke. I've spent enough time over the past twenty four hours outlining how he had to come in and put a squad together in a hurry. Part of that restricted time was taken up by a discredited old regime and their ridiculous reintroduction of a failed manager. For a squad that was put together in such a short space of time the final analyses has to be one of a job well done. Bucks was not lucky to have the support he did, he was entitled to it and the board were entitled to seek a candidate professional enough to warrant that support. They inherited a manager they patently did not think worthy of that support and got rid of him forthwith! I have not taken any manager to task over his running of OUR club except for Leroy Rosenior who I thought was demotivated and insincere in hanging onto his position way before he went, when he knew he had no stomach for the job; and has subsequently been shown to be a hopeless manager in his next short lived position at Brentford. The point I have been highlighting is the futility of constantly harping on over a difficult situation with which the manager had to deal last season, a situation he dealt with and should be allowed to get on with his job. A situation which is done and dusted and left us with a better player in our goal than we had at the beginning of last season. He has not left us with a squad which is ill equipped for the job, he has not left us with a squad which is worse than last season; he is not putting in less time at the club than he was previously and he is not living ninety miles away! So what is the point in continuing to complain that the exact nit picking minutiae of who said what/did what is not public knowledge? I don't see anyone else coming on here with that complaint and quite frankly I see very little evidence of general disquiet over the manager's modus operandi so why keep raking over one episode that has been closed? I'm not saying it's OK for me to say this or you not to say that, I'm saying give the manager the space to do his own job until such time as it becomes obvious (if it ever does) that he is not doing a good job.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 7, 2008 17:59:58 GMT
Please take the time to read posts properly Merse, I did not say his achievements last season were a joke, I said he did a good job for a first year manager.
You will find many fans posted on another forum, how unhappy they were at the time with the Rayner situation and how they felt it was handled. Not on here, as this forum was not here then.
I hardly think you can say I have been continuing to complain, I simply was making the point, that all was not what it might seem to be. If you took the time to read my views on here about the club and Buckle, you will see they are all very positive.
I will give praise in life where it is due, I will also make my views known, if and when mistakes are made. Surly if man who can put his hand up and admit his mistakes, or the poor way he may have handled a situation, then he is a man who will learn and move forward. Just like you did over your mistakes being taken in by Roberts. ;D
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Post by romfordkev on Aug 7, 2008 18:07:23 GMT
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 7, 2008 18:12:17 GMT
Can't see the images Kev , It will not get out of control, we may not agree, but we sure are not disrespecting each other.
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Post by romfordkev on Aug 7, 2008 18:23:42 GMT
Can't see the images Kev , It will not get out of control, we may not agree, but we sure are not disrespecting each other. That's such a shame Dave - after much deliberation, I was sure that I had picked the right colour for you both!!
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Post by tufcwewillbeback on Aug 7, 2008 18:43:31 GMT
I have to join in with the Dave R / Merse debate on Buckle. Firstly, i dont think circumstances were particularly difficult last season and agree with Dave on that. However, I think that he did do a very good job.
Our squad was not as strong as Aldershot's, we did'nt have all of the promising youth that they had and they had much greater depth. Considering, how brilliant they turned out to be, i'd say that we did well to cling on for as long as we did.
The playoff, 5 at the back shambles, was a big mistake but he was in his very first season as a manager against an Exeter side with a considered and experienced manager, in Tisdale.
All in all, to achive third place and reach the trophy final, I would argue that Buck's had a pretty decent season and usually got things right. Therefore, i have a great deal of optomism about his leadership of the club.
Rosenior has, inevitably, been mentioned. Yes we were promoted with him, but we had some fantastic player's, that he had'nt bought in. With the squad he inherited, we probably should have won promotion, no matter who was in charge.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 7, 2008 19:01:51 GMT
Rosenior has, inevitably, been mentioned. Yes we were promoted with him, but we had some fantastic player's, that he had'nt bought in. With the squad he inherited, we probably should have won promotion, no matter who was in charge. I would fully agree that the squad was not put together by Leroy, but he was the one who got them to play. Moving away was a big mistake by Leroy and he did lose his way and sadly the club payed the price. Still he did give us a season we will never forget.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 7, 2008 23:21:52 GMT
he had to come in and put a squad together in a hurry. Part of that restricted time was taken up by a discredited old regime and their ridiculous reintroduction of a failed manager. You are having a laugh there aren't you Merse! The Leroy appointment took up TEN MINUTES of the close season. Going back to 2006/07, I was convinced we were relegated back in November. I always believed that whatever happened in the close season of 2007 and how quickly that happened would decide if that terrible season would be a blip to be recovered from or the beginning of the end. I thought that the takeover might drag on all summer or might not happen at all. Either of those scenarios would have doomed us to a season of failure in the Conference and who knows where that might have led. If you remember the takeover deal was actually agreed on May 17 - less than a fortnight after the end of the season. All the paperwork was then signed sealed and delivered in about one week. That was pretty good going and meant that we were not massively disadvantaged for the following season. Compare that to Mansfield whose takeover dragged on into July - that really is a serious handicap! If anything, I think Bucks had a big advantage over many managers in that he did not inherit other people's leftovers and was able to go out and get the players he wanted without having to wait for "one out" before he could get "one in". A lot of clubs fall out of the League (Exeter was one!) hamstrung by underachieving overpaid players with a year or two left on their contract and cannot rebuild properly until those contracts have worked their way through. Bucks has had backing not seen since the hayday of 1965-71, with the possible exception of the 1990/91 season. You must agree that excellent young managers like Mike Green and Bruce Rioch would have achieved great success if they had had budgets anywhere near those of their rivals. I like Bucks and the way he goes about things. I agree with you 100% on the Rayner topic and the need to "back or sack" a manager. But Dave is absolutely right that Bucks has been given all the tools to do the job. As a result, he will be judged far more critically - by the fans and more importantly by the Board - than those who were not given the tools to do the job. Bucks knows that full well - and I'm sure he doesn't have a problem with it.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 8, 2008 7:36:56 GMT
he had to come in and put a squad together in a hurry. Part of that restricted time was taken up by a discredited old regime and their ridiculous reintroduction of a failed manager. You are having a laugh there aren't you Merse! The Leroy appointment took up TEN MINUTES of the close season. If you remember the takeover deal was actually agreed on May 17 - less than a fortnight after the end of the season. All the paperwork was then signed sealed and delivered in about one week. That was pretty good going and meant that we were not massively disadvantaged for the following season. Compare that to Mansfield whose takeover dragged on into July - that really is a serious handicap! You disagree then agree with me in one statement Jon.............your dates are not arguable against, but you must take into consideration all the lost time once it was obvious the club was in it's last season as a Football League member. Therefore I would contend that coming in in May AFTER the period when a lot of the groundwork towards new signings has passed (you can bet your life that some of THIS summers' signings where being worked on during last season) means that last year's squad WAS put together in a hurry...................and in those circumstances the end result was pretty good. I was not highlighting the appointment of the old regime of Rosenior as an example of time wasted for the new regime (they summarily dismissed him!) I was utilising it as an example of the old regime failing to take the following season and it's vital importance into account at all. All they were interested in was getting out themselves. Such things as takeovers don't happen overnight, and during the time from "conception to completion" the new regime would have been more than aware that they would have been (if successfull) taking over a BSP rather than a Football League club. If they had (and we'll never know if they did) their manager identified during that time, then he wouldn't have really been able to do much ground work other than possibly "butter up" his Exeter contacts during that time. Anyway, I rather had the impression that the man charged with seeking out and securing the new manager was Colin Lee and that he originally was "working" on Keith Curle coming back. You are certainly right in the assumption that the current manager enjoys support from his board unheard of and unimaginable since the periods you highlight, but in my opinion that does not detract from his achievements last season nor from the excellent and lucrative progress in the cups that has allowed a different look at this season's budget than had it not not been achieved. You and I both, know that certain people on this site are trying to draw me into some spectacular slanging match............well it isn't going to happen ( Jon/Dave!) The site is perfectly interesting and "attractive" enough to folk without some stage managed WW3 going on, so I will finalise my comments on this subject with this: Consider that "instant" promotion back to the Football League might not have been the wonderful thing some perceive it to be. Consider that the re-building of OUR club has gone on unabated through the summer despite failing to go straight back up and consider too, that if (and I stress if) we were to be successfull this season the club would be in a whole lot better shape to take advantage of a return to the Football League than it would have been right now. Taking all that into consideration, I contend that Paul Buckle did and is doing a very good job...........and there is no hidden joke in that statement!
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 8, 2008 12:23:26 GMT
Merse, I agree with just about all of what you say there.
I don't think that the consortium was really in a position to move positively much earlier than it did, although if we had been definitely relegated in February things might have been different. As it was, we were clinging on to hopes of survival definitely up until the Accrington game. Although the long term is vital, I could understand the fixation with keeping our League place whilst that remained a possibility.
Maybe if we had kept the Lubos Kubik and Richard Hancox dream team for a few more weeks, we may have been free to cut to the chase a bit earlier without any doubts as to which league we might be in.
But as you say, things could not have turned out better. I would have loved to have bounced straight back, but we didn't and we will continue to build the club regardless.
ONWARDS AND UPWARDS.
By the way, I can't stand slagging matches, but I do enjoy a heated debate from time to time.
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