Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2009 10:52:20 GMT
 On the thread we did recently about the attitude of today’s police, one thing we learned was that most contact with the police is likely to do with motoring. Normally law abiding citizens having to pay fines for going in most cases slightly over the spend limit. When fixed speed cameras started to be installed, we were told they were only put in accident black spots; their aim was solely to reduce accidents and therefore save lives, but I expect we all know a place where a fixed camera is installed where you have never known any accidents to have happened there. Now we have mobile speed traps, the vans have words like road safety partnership on the side, but we all know they are not parked in some lay-by just to prevent any road accidents, but are just cash generating highway robbers. As someone who drives over a thousand miles every week, I see these mobile traps most days of the week, they do not in my view pick their location based on any safely issues on a stretch of a road, but where they will stand a better chance of catching people going over the speed limit. I have seen as I’m sure you have, some parked in places so well hidden, that you drive past them before you ever spot them, that is unless other road users made you aware they were there. I should say that I do not condone speeding and believe we should all drive within the speed limit, even more so in places where the limit is 30mph, but it is so easy just for a few seconds to go over a limit and if you are unlucky, it will be the time someone has a camera pointing at your car. My boss got a speeding ticket last month, the road was an open road with no housing on it and he was snapped doing 36mph, 100 yards before the road limit changed from 30mph to 40 mph, I think we all start to speed up when we see a sign indicating a higher speed a few hundred yards ahead. I see so many real speed merchants and so much dangerous over taking, more so in the early morning period, yet they all seem to get away with it, as it’s a time of day when you do not see mobile traps on the road parked up and trying to catch anyone speeding. I always make sure if the sign says 30mph, or 40mph, then that is the speed I’m driving, its in those speed zones you do run the greatest risk of being caught driving over the limit, but as I said its not hard for a few seconds to go over the road speed limit, you can’t keep your eye solely on the speedo, even more so in built up areas. The A361 from Barnstaple to Tiverton has seen a large increase in mobile speed traps operation along it; they will always be in a lay-by, if you know the road well like I do, then you know when the lay-bys are coming up and keep your eyes fully open. Yesterday I saw one in a place along that road that I had not seen used before, not in a lay-by and very sneakily on a bend, as I expect to see them on that road anyway, I always keep to the limit. I was aware it was around the corner long before I saw it, drivers who had passed it on the other side of the road, were flashing their lights at the cars who were approaching the speed camera van. This is very commonly done by van and lorry drivers to each other, people who depend on their driving licence for work, the distance anyone such driver could do in a day, could see him lose his licence in just one day if he was not careful. So the question is, should we all try and let other motorists know that they are heading toward a speed trap? Last year I read in the local paper, that motorists were stopped and warned on the road between Newton Abbot and Totnes, because they had been seen by police, flashing their lights to warn other drivers there was a camera ahead. You see if its all done in the name of safety and a driver who has been flashed by a fellow driver and this action then makes him slow down and check his speed, surely that must be job done? The driver is now driving at the correct safe speed for the road he is on. The fact the said motorists were warned by the police they were breaking the law, (but are they?) indicates to me they were just unhappy that their trap would see fewer motorists caught over the limit. I take the view if I can let someone know and prevent then from getting a speeding fine, then I will and hope others will do the same. |
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 12, 2009 11:31:26 GMT
I think speed limits should be clearly indicated, especially in urban areas where in many cases they are not.
However, where speed limits are known, or at least should be known by any competent driver, then the driver should stick to the limit without needing to be reminded of his obligation to do so. We can't go around picking and choosing which laws we will adhere to in other areas of life, so why should it be any different for motorists?
And I'm not in favour of 'warning people' of speed cameras either. Flashing headlights, hand movements etc are all ambiguous, and how is the person supposed to know exactly what it is you are indicating? Mind your own affairs, and let others mind theirs is my view, at least as far as this is concerned.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2009 11:48:11 GMT
Lambeth, so you feel all drivers should just get on with their own driving and never flash their lights at other road users? As someone who lives on the roads, I welcome all drivers who try and warn me of something by flashing their lights.
It may have nothing to do with a speed camera ahead, it could be a road accident around the next bend, or down here it might be a horse rider. The action of the other driver clearly is a warning of some sort and the action taken by me is to slow down and look and be aware there might be some danger ahead.
Far better to consider other motorists and try and prevent them from being in an accident or to hit some person on a bike on a blind bent, or a group of walkers he would not see until the last minute and then it might be too late.
Driving as far as I’m concerned is not just about me tying to keep myself safe, but talking the responsibility to warn other road users of dangers ahead and yes that may well be just a spend camera.
It’s a fact that someone who drives the miles I do a year has only a 26% risk of not being in a very serious road crash, this means there is a 74% chance I will do, so please fellow drivers if you feel you may need to warn me of anything ahead of me on the road, PLEASE FLASH YOUR LIGHTS
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 12, 2009 11:57:01 GMT
Lambeth, so you feel all drivers should just get on with their own driving and never flash their lights at other road users? As someone who lives on the roads, I welcome all drivers who try and warn me of something by flashing their lights. In the case of genuine danger, then yes of course. I’m not advocating that people just potter about serenely whilst carnage ensues behind! But in the case of speed checks, then no, I don’t think there is a need to flash people, and I will never do so. Flashes should be used sparingly for the case of genuine danger/hazards – for the very real and important reason you state. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2009 12:26:51 GMT
So Lambeth, you are out driving one day and don’t realise you are a few miles over the speed limit. I flash my lights to you and you take it as warning sign. You slow down and then see a camera van, as you pass it you will know because you slowed down and only because I flashed my lights at you, there will be no £60 fine and three points coming on your license
Are you telling me that you would rather I had not flashed you? That you got the fine and points on your license, or would you be thinking thank god that driver flashed his lights.
I see so much poor driving, I see so much dangerous driving on our roads, yes I want all the real speed merchants to be fined and if possible taken off our roads, and then the percentages of me not being in a serious road accident will go up.
If I felt these mobile cameras had anything to do with road safety, then I would not have a problem with them, but they are just a means of getting more money from motorists who are already getting screwed to death by our government.
I feel happy and pleased if I have prevented a fellow driver from falling into this cash trap and will continue to do it, a simply flash and hand movement indicating their need to slow down is all it takes to stop them having a bad day, should I see and work out they are driving very fast and well above the speed limit, then I would never flash that driver and let him get what he would deserve.
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 12, 2009 12:40:28 GMT
The thread asks a question, which I assumed meant you felt there were at least two sides to the argument. If that's not the case, then I suggest you might want to re-arrange the words in the thread title and remove the question mark  For what it's worth, no Dave, I don't want busybodies babysitting me on the road. And if someone is speeding on the other side of the road, then quite frankly, I hope the bugger gets caught and fined. |
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Post by stefano on Dec 12, 2009 12:51:10 GMT
I would agree with Dave that the fixed and mobile cameras on our roads are a revenue raising scheme for the government, and boy do they need it! Serious dangerous driving does of course need dealing with as it puts us all at risk, but unfortunately the vast increase in fixed and mobile speed cameras was matched by a vast decrease in the number of mobile traffic patrols who have the best chance to apprehend reckless and dangerous drivers. Like Dave I regularly travel on the A361 and on that road on virtually every journey I see absolutely appalling drving which is dangerous but not captured by the cameras.
The issue as to whether it is actually an offence to warn others of speed cameras is I think still unclear. Many years ago there was case law where a motorist had been convicted of obstructing police for flashing his lights at approaching cars to warn of a police speed check (not so sophisticated in those days using stop watches over a set distance!!). However in about 2005 there was a case involving a lorry driver Charles Glendinning (or something like that) who was convicted in the Magistrates Court of obstructing police after waving his arm out of the window at approaching motorists as a warning of a speed camera. He appealed and won his appeal. The case then went to the High Court in that elegant building on the Strand who agreed with the Court of Appeal, ruling that it had not been proved that the lorry driver knew that approaching vehicles were speeding or that any vehicles had slowed down as a result of his arm waving. The last I heard the CPS were considering taking the case to the House of Lords, perhaps Rob is able to update on whether it was taken further.
I had better sign off now to get to Plainmoor as I don't want to have to speed through Avonwick to make it on time!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2009 12:53:50 GMT
The thread title has a question mark on the end because it is asking a question. Therefore it will generate arguments from people who have different views points and that is the object of having a debate on the subject.
A part of any debate is to put your view and points you want to make, then listen to the other person’s views and then give them other thoughts they may like to consider. That is what I thought I was doing; as I have said get the speeders and dangerous drivers off our roads, but so many drivers who have fallen foul of mobile speed traps are safe and responsible drivers, who just went a few miles over the speed limit, there lies the real difference between them and the ones who never seem to get caught, those driving well above the speed limits and being a real danger to other road users.
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 12, 2009 13:07:02 GMT
Well, fair enough. It just seems to me as though you feel the opposing view is so wrong that there isn’t really a question to be asked here.
I don’t happen to think that speed cameras are the most effective way of addressing speeding drivers, but I do think they are legitimate. And I do think that flashing lights should be reserved for genuine hazards. I can understand how it is a particular concern for you though Dave, given you line of work and the mileage you do.
As for the lorry driver with his arm stuck out of his cab referred to by Stefano, why on earth wasn’t this oaf charged with dangerous driving instead?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2009 13:14:21 GMT
Lambeth, I should point out I have held a clean driving license since I passed my test when I was 17 years old, have never been involved in any road accident, a feat I'm proud of when you consider the miles I drive every year.
I do consider myself to be a very safe driver, I think my driving record speaks for itself, but an so mindful my untarnished driving career could be ruined by a simple lapses of going just a few miles over a limit
So I'm not arguing my point simply because I may have fell foul to these traps as that is not the case.
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 12, 2009 13:18:59 GMT
Well that makes two of us with unbliemished licences then  . And yes, your record clearly does speak for itself. Especially given the miles you do. That means there's even less excuse for the average moaner in the pub who's just picked up his third speeding ticket this year! |
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Post by graystar on Dec 12, 2009 14:38:17 GMT
Agree entirely Dave, that if you are aware that a police radar trap is ahead and you see another approaching driver who may be over the limit you have the decency and forethought to let him know so that he can correct his speed and drive within the law. I am sure that the vast majority of us would rather know that there is a risk we may be zapped by the radar gun and would very much appreciate the helping hand of our friendly neighbourhood drivers coming in the opposite direction.
Too much emphasis is placed on the use of speed cameras in order to generate extra revenue these days and not enough thought goes into actual road safety. This has been borne out in TV documentaries in recent years and the jury is still out as to whether the law is being properly applied to slow traffic down for the right reasons or to just use the speeding motorists (even those just slightly above the limit) to generate extra revenue. I am in favour of letting your fellow motorist know he needs to adjust his speed, it is a very good thing and can only improve the safety of other motorists and pedestrians.
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merse
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Post by merse on Dec 12, 2009 18:18:22 GMT
 Last winter I WAS driving within the prescribed variable speed limit (60mph) as shown on the overhead gantries on the M25 when I was hit up the arse by someone doing at least 61! Let's be under no illusion, the rapid expansion in the use of speed cameras just as in cctv in town and city centres has only been offset by the virtual disappearance from the scene of the real live copper...................and to what effect? Smart arses "surf" the areas between cameras clocking up excessive speeds and the street criminal has a bean feast "between" the all seeing (not) eye. Driving at excessive speed is not only anti social but criminally neglectful of any social responsibility or respect of other human life. Anyone who whinges about getting caught speeding on camera has only my contempt as they are clearly guilty of the described crimes against society.. As a professional driver like Dave, whilst I would make an attempt to warn an oncoming motorist of a hazard ahead of them I would most certainly NOT warn them of any speed camera. To drive within the speed limit is their responsibility and that is the bottom line. I have one conviction for exceeding a 30mph speed limit in Kingskerswell in 1969, and one for having non matching headlight bulbs in a coach in 1985 ~ that's my full "criminal" record in over forty years of driving, most of them as a professional during which some of the lack of respect, anger control and downright criminal behaviour I have seen on the roads has to be seen to be believed. Surely Dave, when you see what we see at times it should be enough to persuade you NOT to aid and abet other drivers to avoid getting caught speeding whatever the method (GATSO or FATSO) of catching them. Personally, I think it is as morally corrupt and socially irresponsible to "help them out" by flashing a warning as it is to commit the speeding offence oneself.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 14, 2009 20:41:07 GMT
Personally, I think it is as morally corrupt and socially irresponsible to "help them out" by flashing a warning as it is to commit the speeding offence oneself. I personally, I think it is as morally corrupt and socially irresponsible to say let a drunk person get in a car and drive away if you had the chance to stop them. I do not think its morally corrupt and socially irresponsible to indicate to an oncoming motorist who may be just a few miles over the speed limit, there is a speed trap ahead. I'm not talking about the driver going well over the speed limit, as I said its very easy to find you have unknowingly gone a few miles about the speed limit for a short time. This morning in Dorset I made about 12 motorists aware there was a speed trap ahead, each one put their hands up to thank me and I was pleased I did my bit for my fellow motorists. I will say again if it was about road safely then I would have no problem with them, but that is not the case as they are just a way to fleece the car driver even more than they are already. As a driver who does very large mileages every week, I believe they are a danger to my driving. I have to look so far ahead, check all road bridges, lay-bys, vans partly sticking out from a hedge. This takes away some of my attention I should be giving only to the road. |
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Post by lambethgull on Dec 14, 2009 21:03:35 GMT
This morning in Dorset I made about 12 motorists aware there was a speed trap ahead, each one put their hands up to thank me and I was pleased I did my bit for my fellow motorists. Flashing motorists, counting oncoming vehicles, observing their responses...wouldn't you have done better to have kept your eyes on the road and your speed, Dave? |
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