Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 21:30:04 GMT
Several times recently Dave has mentioned how - unintentionally at first maybe - we're building some sort of historical record on this site. That occasionally involves quoting facts and figures, especially when we talk about the number of appearances such-and-such a player has made for the club. For players finishing their Torquay careers prior to the end of the 1998/99 season, you can find details in the Centenary History split between league, FA Cup, FL Cup and other matches (including play-offs). That, for me, is the best source of information about former players, even more so because it includes cup games which are often absent from other records. For the period 1946-2007 you can also refer to the excellent Neil Brown site - www.neilbrown.newcastlefans.com - although this solely covers Football League games and only includes players who have left their respective clubs. Otherwise, there is the Rothmans/Sky Sports Yearbook, Soccerbase (www.soccerbase.com) and Barry Hugman's book of players 1946-2005. Most of these concentrate on main-season league games only - without the play-offs - although Soccerbase attempts to cover other games (albeit patchily at times). One issue for the future will be that most of these sources will discount our two seasons in the Conference from the reckoning. If you want proof of this look at Chris Zebroski's entry in this year's Sky Sports Yearbook and you will see there is no mention of his time at Plainmoor. Looking at it you'd imagine he spent all of 2007/2008 at Millwall without playing a game. By my count - based on the last two Sky Sports Yearbooks - forty-one players appeared for us in league games whilst we were in the Conference. Of these, seven - including Lee Mansell and Chris Robertson who have remained at Plainmoor throughout - had previously played for Torquay United in the Football League. Using Sky Sports Yearbook Conference appearance statistics - rather than those quoted in the club programme - I would update the Neil Brown figures for league games (starts + subs combined) to: Tony Bedeau: 328 apps (305 FL + 23 Con); 58 goals (58 FL) Kevin Hill: 417 apps (404+13); 51 goals (49+2) Matt Hockley: 239 apps (210+29); 10 goals (9+1) Simon Rayner: 40 apps (10+30) Steve Woods: 247 apps (199+48); 11 goals (10+1) Another fifteen players made their debut for Torquay United in the Conference but have now played for us in the Football League: Benyon, Bevan, Brough (came on at Dagenham), Carayol, Carlisle, Ellis, Hargreaves, Hodges, Nicholson, Poke, Sills, Stevens, T.Thompson, Todd and Wroe. In most of these cases (together with Mansell and Robertson) discounting Conference appearances from their eventual Torquay tally would severely underplay their careers with the club. That leaves nineteen players who, whilst appearing in Conference matches for Torquay United, have not played for the club in the Football League: Adams, Andersen, Banim, Charran, Christie, Dsane, Green, Hinshelwood, Laird, Mohamed, Mullings, Phillips, Rice, Sturrock, L.Thompson, Welsh, Wring, Yeoman and Zebroski. In theory Adams and Green could return and there is still plenty of time for Ashley Yeoman. Of the rest there are some significant individuals in that list and – no doubt – a few you’ve forgotten about. But, although these names may go missing from certain sets of records in the future, it’s a safe bet that plenty of worse players have appeared for us in the Football League. Finally there's another player who appeared during the last two seasons. He appeared in the FA Trophy but not the Conference. Who? |
|
|
|
Post by stewart on Nov 15, 2009 23:08:35 GMT
I believe the answer to your question must be Tristan Plummer, who was on loan from Bristol City but was sent back after one FA Trophy appeareance.
There is also one player who has played who has played for Torquay United before and after the Conference, but not in the Conference.
For me, Football League appearances are all that matter in any club's history of appearances, and that is why I have omitted the past two years from my own records. You have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you could be tempted to include all kinds of lower leagues if you were attempting to create an historical record of clubs such as Newport County and Gateshead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2009 7:47:04 GMT
Tristan Plummer is correct - and Marvin Williams for the before and after (but not during) question?
As Stewart says, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. For certain, concentrating on the Football League (and Premier League) is the most convenient approach for the keeping of records across many clubs and thousands of players. It also ensures neatness and consistency.
With respect to records within a club that's more a matter of preference. Indeed, there's an argument that says including the Conference between 2007 and 2009 should be balanced by incorporating the Western League and Southern League appearances between 1921 and 1927. Unless you want to go back further or, indeed, stick with the Football League only.....
|
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Nov 16, 2009 8:56:56 GMT
The whole reason the History Room was created was to chat about and store valuable history about the club, the fans and the area, when there is a lot more in here we can start to assemble the data collected into date order and start building different catagories or chapters of history so it can be collated into a book of some sort, whether it be an E-book or a proper book. Just a thought but we could sell said book and raise money for the site or the club or a charitable cause or three, this book will start other clubs fans copying us and hopefully we would have started the ball rolling for the most comprehensive collection of football knowledge ever drafted!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2009 22:54:42 GMT
The whole reason the History Room was created was to chat about and store valuable history about the club, the fans and the area, when there is a lot more in here we can start to assemble the data collected into date order and start building different catagories or chapters of history so it can be collated into a book of some sort, whether it be an E-book or a proper book. Just a thought but we could sell said book and raise money for the site or the club or a charitable cause or three, this book will start other clubs fans copying us and hopefully we would have started the ball rolling for the most comprehensive collection of football knowledge ever drafted! Gosh, somebody better respond to this suggestion. Well, it's an idea, isn't it? Maybe scope for a quirky miscellany arranged on an A to Z basis in the fashion of the book Mike Blackstone produced about Exeter City some years back? Here's a sample entry from that publication:  And, if you're interested, there's more about Dido at www.exetermemories.co.uk/EM/StJamesP.html including mention of his presence in stone at the cathedral: Dido (or his descendants?) appeared from time to time over the following years, to ensure the club kept winning - unfortunately he often had other duties on Saturday, leaving the Grecians to lose a few games. He became so famous that he was immortalised in stone by a Cathedral mason and is now perched on the north side of the Cathedral alongside Bishop Mortimer, who apparently was also a fan. |
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Nov 16, 2009 23:01:06 GMT
Both you and Jon Barton have all the powers to move threads etc in any order you want, if at any time you both feel you need sub boards so you can put certain things together in one place, then I will create them for you and might even make even more new banners to reflect each board. As for a booK? both you and Jon have the job if you want it  |
|
merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
|
Post by merse on Nov 17, 2009 3:44:08 GMT
 DIDO THE SEAGULL?So who are The Chipnickers now then?  ...........................and what about "Resurgam" down at Gnome Park? You know, the re-gurgatating bird that featured on their programme covers of the early fifties
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2009 21:28:49 GMT
I'm sure somebody, somewhere has a spread sheet detailing exactly how many players have featured in competitive first-team games for Torquay United. If so, can they confirm how close are we to seeing our 1,000th first-team player in all competitions since 1927?
By my reckoning there's 780-800 players listed in the A-to-Z in the Centenary History complete to 1999. A quick count suggests another 145 or so more made their club debuts in the period up to relegation in 2007 (including thirty in that fateful season alone). Add the thirty-five during the two Conference seasons - and the handful of new players this season - and I reckon we're around thirty short of the thousand mark. Can anybody be more precise?
|
|
Jon
Admin
Posts: 6,912
|
Post by Jon on Nov 17, 2009 23:22:13 GMT
I'm sure somebody, somewhere has a spread sheet detailing exactly how many players have featured in competitive first-team games for Torquay United. If so, can they confirm how close are we to seeing our 1,000th first-team player in all competitions since 1927? When you find him, can you get him to send me a copy? Anyway, I thought you'd agreed that if we were counting the Conference we had to count the Western League and Southern League too. We can't have people thinking Percy Mackrill only played six games for Torquay, can we? |
|
|
|
Post by Budleigh on Nov 18, 2009 11:07:00 GMT
The idea of a book is something that has crossed my mind numerous times as i've been editing the TFF programme pages... Indeed I had started a small list of catagories from the postings used this season for this very reason. So count me in as a 'helper' if needed and it comes to fruition.
|
|
|
|
Post by stewart on Nov 18, 2009 18:11:13 GMT
I'm sure somebody, somewhere has a spread sheet detailing exactly how many players have featured in competitive first-team games for Torquay United. If so, can they confirm how close are we to seeing our 1,000th first-team player in all competitions since 1927? By my reckoning there's 780-800 players listed in the A-to-Z in the Centenary History complete to 1999. A quick count suggests another 145 or so more made their club debuts in the period up to relegation in 2007 (including thirty in that fateful season alone). Add the thirty-five during the two Conference seasons - and the handful of new players this season - and I reckon we're around thirty short of the thousand mark. Can anybody be more precise? I keep a spreadsheet of players' appearances and goals since our first season in the League in 1927, but it's for Football League matches only. The latest count is 913 players. I wouldn't have thought that there were that many players who have appeared in Cup matches without playing in the League, at least not until recent years when we seem to have become involved in some very minor cup competitions. So, if you add your 35 from the BSP, there may be some way to go to hit the 1,000 target. One of these days I will take on the task of including all the cups and come up with a proper figure. |
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Nov 18, 2009 18:37:14 GMT
Well I thought the book or CD rom was a good idea to raise money!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2009 22:14:15 GMT
I keep a spreadsheet of players' appearances and goals since our first season in the League in 1927, but it's for Football League matches only. The latest count is 913 players. Thanks for that, Stewart. I've now done a proper count from the Centenary History of players making Football League appearances between 1927/28 and 1998/99 and it comes to 750. Add 144 debutants between 1999 and 2007 (an incredible figure), the fifteen who've followed us from the Conference to make their Torquay United FL debuts this season four us plus the four debutants this season (Charnock, Mills, Rendell and Jake Thomson) and the total comes to - as you say - 913. That leaves my additional nineteen who played Conference league matchs for us - but not Football League (a list which currently includes Chris Zebroski) - and you've 932 players who've played some sort of league football for Torquay United since 1927. We may have discussed this before but the Centenary History lists another fifteen who've played some form of competitive football for the club without playing a league game: two from the aborted 1939/40 season (Jones and Tait); three in the FA Cup only (Rodgers in 1931/32, Adrian Tucker and Paul Viner) four in the League Cup (Doug Allder, Alan Barnett, Steve Kidd and Steve Perks), four in the Associate Members Cup (Tony Burt, Richard Gomm, Amir Hashemi and Scot Kaasikmae) and two in the pre-war Div 3(S) Cup (Griffiths and Johnson). Since 1999 I can only find Ashley Keane (in the Associate Members Cup) and Tristan Plummer (in the FA Trophy). If this is correct - and I'm ferreting around other sources of information rather than anything I've produced personally - it may just be that Adam Smith (or Saul Halpin?) becomes the 950th player to appear in competitive football for the club since 1927 (and, no, I've no wish to go anywhere near the Devon Bowl or assorted sundry competitions). But I could be wrong.....and I'm sure someone will shortly tell us so. |
|
Jon
Admin
Posts: 6,912
|
Post by Jon on Aug 18, 2010 21:25:16 GMT
I've now done a proper count from the Centenary History of players making Football League appearances between 1927/28 and 1998/99 and it comes to 750. Add 144 debutants between 1999 and 2007 (an incredible figure), the fifteen who've followed us from the Conference to make their Torquay United FL debuts this season four us plus the four debutants this season (Charnock, Mills, Rendell and Jake Thomson) and the total comes to - as you say - 913. That leaves my additional nineteen who played Conference league matchs for us - but not Football League (a list which currently includes Chris Zebroski) - and you've 932 players who've played some sort of league football for Torquay United since 1927. We may have discussed this before but the Centenary History lists another fifteen who've played some form of competitive football for the club without playing a league game: two from the aborted 1939/40 season (Jones and Tait); three in the FA Cup only (Rodgers in 1931/32, Adrian Tucker and Paul Viner) four in the League Cup (Doug Allder, Alan Barnett, Steve Kidd and Steve Perks), four in the Associate Members Cup (Tony Burt, Richard Gomm, Amir Hashemi and Scot Kaasikmae) and two in the pre-war Div 3(S) Cup (Griffiths and Johnson). Since 1999 I can only find Ashley Keane (in the Associate Members Cup) and Tristan Plummer (in the FA Trophy). If this is correct - and I'm ferreting around other sources of information rather than anything I've produced personally - it may just be that Adam Smith (or Saul Halpin?) becomes the 950th player to appear in competitive football for the club since 1927 (and, no, I've no wish to go anywhere near the Devon Bowl or assorted sundry competitions). But I could be wrong.....and I'm sure someone will shortly tell us so. Look away now Merse. I make Damon Lathrope number 962. |
|
|
|
Post by stefano on Aug 18, 2010 21:51:54 GMT
I've now done a proper count from the Centenary History of players making Football League appearances between 1927/28 and 1998/99 and it comes to 750. Add 144 debutants between 1999 and 2007 (an incredible figure), the fifteen who've followed us from the Conference to make their Torquay United FL debuts this season four us plus the four debutants this season (Charnock, Mills, Rendell and Jake Thomson) and the total comes to - as you say - 913. That leaves my additional nineteen who played Conference league matchs for us - but not Football League (a list which currently includes Chris Zebroski) - and you've 932 players who've played some sort of league football for Torquay United since 1927. We may have discussed this before but the Centenary History lists another fifteen who've played some form of competitive football for the club without playing a league game: two from the aborted 1939/40 season (Jones and Tait); three in the FA Cup only (Rodgers in 1931/32, Adrian Tucker and Paul Viner) four in the League Cup (Doug Allder, Alan Barnett, Steve Kidd and Steve Perks), four in the Associate Members Cup (Tony Burt, Richard Gomm, Amir Hashemi and Scot Kaasikmae) and two in the pre-war Div 3(S) Cup (Griffiths and Johnson). Since 1999 I can only find Ashley Keane (in the Associate Members Cup) and Tristan Plummer (in the FA Trophy). If this is correct - and I'm ferreting around other sources of information rather than anything I've produced personally - it may just be that Adam Smith (or Saul Halpin?) becomes the 950th player to appear in competitive football for the club since 1927 (and, no, I've no wish to go anywhere near the Devon Bowl or assorted sundry competitions). But I could be wrong.....and I'm sure someone will shortly tell us so. I can see where you are coming from but the Devon Bowl and assorted sundry competitions (eg Western Counties Floodlit League) were / are first team competitions. I do understand though how difficult it makes it for an historian, but ... does a Manchester United historian say he will not count the FA Cup before the semi-final or the League Cup at all. Same principle really |
|
