Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 16:11:21 GMT
Home is home, there is no place like home, how many times have we all said those words. I know being so far away from my home every working day, I really can't wait to get back inside my home.
Plainmoor is the home of our club, its where it has played all its football, its where all its history is. I welcome to our forum Rolf, an Ajax supporter, but also a supporter of the mighty TUAFC and he has made some posts on the Amsterdam Arena thread. Now if you have looked at the photos of the Amsterdam Arena, you would think any club would love that to be its stadium.
I hope Rolf will tell you the real magic he felt, 10 years ago when he watched a game at Plainmoor, for the very first time, I will say nothing, It will be better coming from him. Now Merse has stated that Ajax's old ground was a dump and maybe it was. To Ajax fans it was the home of their club, where all their clubs history was. Yes they outgrew the ground, but most only wanted to see that ground improved and made larger.
They do not like their new ground, its not home to their club, they pay a rent to play there, so the arena, is only a stadium where Ajax play football and that is all. There is nothing inside the ground that makes it Ajax's ground and so many other events take place there and Ajax get nothing from any of them.
We all know that the popside and the away end, could and should have been made bigger and better when Baterson built the new stands. We all know we need a new main grandstand, it is a disgrace and in time it will be done.Even if we went up this season and then the next, we would never fill the ground out, maybe say if Bristol City were playing us, then yes games like that we would maybe. A new main grandstand could add 2 to 3 thousand extra places, more that we would ever need.
So those who believed that moving into the Roberts stadium would have been the best thing for the club I say this. Our club, would have only played its games there, it would have never been our home, with the amount of fans we have, they would have only opened one quarter of the ground, for our matches.
We would have never got any other revenue from the stadium, if we wanted to host any event, like we are able to at Plainmoor, it would first have to be paid for and then only if the stadium was not booked.
So no our ground is not the best, it needs improving, but it is the home of our club and trust me,there really is no place like home.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 30, 2008 16:33:03 GMT
Now Merse has stated that Ajax's old ground was a dump and maybe it was.  Woah there, I did not say De Meer was a dump; I said it "wasn't up to much and a disappointment" empty (which is the only way I ever saw it) it was very bland and uninspiring. I thought the "Koop" was a dump - and it was in those days! I think Plainmoor with a new grandstand will be fine for our purpose up as far as League 1 but even then it will restrict our ability to cash in on big cup ties and big derbies due to the ridiculous low capacity and should we ever attain the unlikely heights of the Championship it would be a veritable millstone unless immediate remedial work was achievable to put seating on top of the Family Stand and the Grandstand converted into a two tier structure allowing at least a ten thousand capacity......................the very minimum that would allow the club a sporting chance of surviving at those giddy heights, as at Crewe Alexandra. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 16:40:15 GMT
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 30, 2008 16:47:04 GMT
What I did say was that a development at the Rec would allow the club to grow and the town to hold events they had never thought possible. Plainmoor, whilst it is our home and very much loved by me; will NEVER allow us to sustain a higher level of football than we have ever achieved in the past. Even without OUR club, the Rec needs ripping up and developing as a sporting/leisure venue that enhances the town rather than the semi-shanty, rusting and creaking embarrassment it has become. Having such an eyesore right in the town's shop window and the first thing one sees entering the town from the railway station is hideous and the town should be ashamed of the state of disrepair it has been allowed to fall into................it could be such a lovely sight!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 16:56:45 GMT
No one can disagree,that the site needs improving, maybe now the council has sorted out a new lease, improvements might happen. I drive past it often and sorry it is not bad as you would make out. I have told you before the people of Torbay are not afraid of change, would welcome improvements in sports facilities for all in the bay.
What we were not prepared to do, was GIVE away what is probably the most valuable piece of land in Torbay, to a con man, to build on a site that would not have been suitable for its needs, but more importantly taken the heart out of our club, by taking away its home and history.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 17:13:11 GMT
I would add Merse, that our Railway station, is really dirty and an even bigger disgrace, most will get back on the train anyway and won't even see the Rec, that is mostly hidden by tress etc.
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Post by capitalgull on Jul 30, 2008 19:28:49 GMT
I would add Merse, that our Railway station, is really dirty and an even bigger disgrace, most will get back on the train anyway and won't even see the Rec, that is mostly hidden by tress etc. And it also has station staff who would rather pander to four Germans looking for tickets for some time in 2010 than a queue of 10 people looking to buy a ticket for the train due to leave in six minutes, about 20 minutes after the 10 arrived in said queue. But we aren't bitter of course, because we all got on the train without tickets and had fun explaining to the kindly guard why we hadn't yet paid! And agree, the station is a flaming disgrace - rusted, dusty and out of shape....just like Merse! |
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Post by the92ndfish on Jul 30, 2008 20:55:41 GMT
I'm going to step out of line and align more with Merse's state of mind and state that I think we need to leave Plainmoor if any potential is ever going to be fufilled. Colin Lee has in the past said he could see the club playing in the Championship 'in the future' and when you see what the likes of Colchester, Southend and Doncaster, Yeovil have done in recent years theres no reason to think that the club certainly support such a level, given a good number of years to develop and expand it's fan base. We averaged a good 4k when in League One under the inept Batesonite regime, where we showed no ambition, lost god knows how many games and were a shambles, had the current board been in place then and some ambition been showed, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say we could have averaged around 5.5-6k, which is pushing Plainmoor to it's limits.
If CL was being serious with the vague assertion that Championship football is sustainable given time, then a 6,000 stadium isn't a go'er, even an expanded grandstand and 8k stadium isn't good enough, to successfully compete at that level, I'd estimate you need to have average crowds similar to Plymouth's or maybe something like 9-10k with high ancillary non football related income streams. Plainmoor can provide neither.
A new stadium would be needed in this hypothetical situation and any expansion of the current Plainmoor site now would just be a waste of money if they're serious about such a level of football, as they'd have to leave the Plainmoor site anyways. Get the council to sell the Plainmoor site and agree to funnel all revenue derived from the transaction into the new stadium project, and build new houses on the site, but keep a link with the club by naming the new streets after Torquay United things, such as Boyce Road, Stubbs Avenue, etc etc. It'd benefit the council who are struggling like hell to find land for new homes, it'd benefit the club and some legacy will remain of the club's years there.
As I have proposed many times, a stadium/training facility complex on the edge of town could centralise club activities into one area, provide much lacking sporting facilities for the people of Torquay and facilitate possibly the likes of pop/rock concerts and the like, which would help TQU compete against more popularly supported teams such as the Bradford etcs of this world, by bringing in revenue from something other than football related income streams. It would also simultaneously improve both the cultural and sporting landscape of Torbay, the South Hams and Teignbridge overnight.
Yes Plainmoor has memories, but the one thing in life that stays the same is that everything changes, within time the new stadium would become home to the club and gain new memories attached to it, if the stadium is owned by the club or owned by the council and held by the club on a loooong lease, then theres nothing wrong with it. Yes CR was a loon and his choice of site was suspect to say the least, but the actual concept of his idea was sound.
Ambition is not a dirty word, if you'd have told Fulham fans 15 years ago, they'd be secure (..ish) in the EPL with regular attendances of 20,000 odd, they'd have laughed at you. Likewise if you told Doncaster fans at the turn of the century they'd be in the Championship with a brand spanking new stadium, they'd have also laughed at you.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 21:12:08 GMT
Once again 92nd, you have shown how important young people are to Torbay. I know that you would like to see changes made all round Torbay to try and take it forward.
I have also agreed with you before that such a stadium, in the right place and able to provide all the things you mention, would be really good. As long as the club owned and ran it, so that all revenue went into the club.
I do really believe that Division one, would be as high as we could go, mainly, because I don't believe,we would ever get the the amount of supporters needed to have a competitive team above that level, unless all the revenue from such a stadium, could be used to fiance the team.
My point really was more to highlight, what a mistake it would have been to leave Plainmoor, for the Roberts stadium, one that we would only ever play in. Ajax fans,, feel that giving up their own ground and end up paying rent to a Stadium Company, has in a way lost the heart and soul of their club.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 30, 2008 21:14:24 GMT
- rusted, dusty and out of shape....just like Merse! Hey, I heard that - pardon? I am NOT rusted  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 30, 2008 21:34:28 GMT
........... a stadium/training facility complex on the edge of town could centralise club activities into one area, provide much lacking sporting facilities for the people of Torquay and facilitate possibly the likes of pop/rock concerts and the like, I hope that in saying "the edge of town" you do not mean somewhere "on the Ring Road" as other such locations away from the hub of life (if there really is such a a thing in Torquay  ) have proved to be an absolute disaster as far as secondary use of stadiums are concerned whereby they might as well padlock the places for a fortnight at a time between matches. The screamingly obviously place for me in Torquay is Torre Valley North but I know in my heart of hearts that the collective and community will to develop and locate such a sporting centre within the town simply does not exist. One cannot equate life in Torquay being in any way similar to seaside towns of any substantial size like Southend, Blackpool, Bournemouth or Brighton where they have a fairly lively commercial ethos' because they are NOT predominantly retirement areas and I might add; these "Big Four" of the seaside football towns have each encountered terrible problems in the past trying to achieve just the very thing we are talking about. Whatever the Mayor likes to pretend, the FACT is Torquay is one of the quietly dozing sort of backwaters that a significant majority of the population have chosen to live out their dotage in and therefore has far more in common with non league venues (in footballing terms) such as Eastbourne, Scarborough, Southport and Weston Super Mare. By that criteria, the board and management of the club (to say nothing of the active support) are supporting the veritable "Champions of the Morgues" at this current time and I hold no confidence whatsoever that things would ever be any different unless the club were to move lock stock and barrel to working class Newton Abbot where there is ample space to develop such facilities on the "Railway Lands" bordering the station, Brunel Road or the Racecourse at the Kinsteignton Road/Avenue corner. If Grimsby Town can exist in Cleethorpes, then Torquay United can equally exist and flourish in NA! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 21:51:11 GMT
Well I have to disagree about where such a stadium could go. The Willows or ring road would be great sites. People have cars and if the event is what they really wanted to see, they will travel.
Most here have to travel to Plymouth to watch any top acts, so why would secondary uses not work in Torbay. Newton has changed since you lived there Merse. Gone are the days when so many were Torquay fans. Most seem to be Plymouth fans these days.
Why. because they can drive there and watch a much higher level of football. Putting our club in Newton, might get some more supporters its true and If It reached the championship, then maybe many Newton people would convert to our club.
But do you really believe TUFC fans would just let the club move to Newton, OK I know its not far away, but its a different town, with a different name, so I think such a move would lose fans I'm afraid.
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Post by stuartB on Jul 30, 2008 21:53:32 GMT
Well I have to disagree about where such a stadium could go. The Willows or ring road would be great sites. People have cars and if the event is what they really wanted to see, they will travel. Most here have to travel to Plymouth to watch any top acts, so why would secondary uses not work in Torbay. Newton has changed since you lived there Merse. Gone are the days when so many were Torquay fans. Most seem to be Plymouth fans these days. Why. because they can drive there and watch a much higher level of football. Putting our club in Newton, might get some more supporters its true and If It reached the championship, then maybe many Newton people would convert to our club. But do you really believe TUFC fans would just let the club [glow=red,2,300]move to Newton[/glow], OK I know its not far away, but its a different town, with a different name, so I think such a move would lose fans I'm afraid. would rather see it at Clennon Valley |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 30, 2008 21:58:34 GMT
Well I have to disagree about where such a stadium could go. The Willows or ring road would be great sites. People have cars and if the event is what they really wanted to see, they will travel. Most here have to travel to Plymouth to watch any top acts, so why would secondary uses not work in Torbay. Newton has changed since you lived there Merse. Gone are the days when so many were Torquay fans. Most seem to be Plymouth fans these days. Why. because they can drive there and watch a much higher level of football. Putting our club in Newton, might get some more supporters its true and If It reached the championship, then maybe many Newton people would convert to our club. But do you really believe TUFC fans would just let the club [glow=red,2,300]move to Newton[/glow], OK I know its not far away, but its a different town, with a different name, so I think such a move would lose fans I'm afraid. would rather see it at Clennon Valley Well If it went there, do you think the club should then change its name. It would have to be Torbay United, I know some will want to lynch me, but I could live with that. Maybe because I often say I'm from Torbay, rather than saying Paignton. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 30, 2008 22:02:38 GMT
The club wouldn't need to change it's name moving up the A380 and any thriving "social use" is not going to happen stuck out on the ring road. If you doubt me, try calling in at Scunthorpe, Chester or any other such club that stuck up a tin box identikit "stadium" on cheap retail park designated areas. Where you DON'T find pubs you DON'T find life that generates any commercial activity - FACT! If folk who drive to matches can park conveniently adjacent to the stadium they are far more likely to drive OUT of Torquay than INTO it. If they can sweep in off the Newton By Pass via a dedicated approach road they would just love it..............Blackpool's ground used to be adjacent to railway sidings, now that area is a huge car parking complex serving equally well the resort in the summer and autumn and the stadium in the winter. The odd nincompoop who decided not to support the club any more just because they moved to a purpose built location would be far outnumbered by those who found the new sight to be a joy to arrive at, spend their day and leave again at leisure.
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Woah there, I did not say De Meer was a dump; I said it "wasn't up to much and a disappointment" empty (which is the only way I ever saw it) it was very bland and uninspiring. 
