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Post by stuartB on Jul 30, 2008 22:02:41 GMT
would rather see it at Clennon Valley Well If it went there, do you think the club should then change its name. It would have to be Torbay United, I know some will want to lynch me, but I could live with that. Maybe because I often say I'm from Torbay, rather than saying Paignton. Fine by me as more people follow TUFC from Paignton, Brixham etc than actually from Torquay. A bit like Manure really!! Light blue touch paper and retire rapidly ;D |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 15:56:54 GMT
Well If it went there, do you think the club should then change its name. It would have to be Torbay United, I know some will want to lynch me, but I could live with that. Maybe because I often say I'm from Torbay, rather than saying Paignton. Fine by me as more people follow TUFC from Paignton, Brixham etc than actually from Torquay. A bit like Manure really!! Light blue touch paper and retire rapidly ;D How do you know that stuart? I would find that a bit strange, I always felt that many in Brixham did not support the team. I know a lot of people from Paignton, who go to the games, but I really would have felt most would have come from Torquay. |
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Post by spagbol74 on Jul 31, 2008 15:59:25 GMT
When i used to travel away regularly on the coach, more people got on in Paignton than in Torquay on a lot of occasions.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 16:04:31 GMT
Well maybe it is a fact then, so if that was the case and a new ground was built at Clennon Valley, maybe if a name change was put to the vote. in this case Torbay United, it might get passed.
Somehow I don't really believe that and most fans would want to stick with Torquay United, as i said I could not see fans excepting the club moving to Newton Abbot either.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 31, 2008 16:36:39 GMT
 Newton Abbot is virtually the same conurbation as Torbay so I contend it would be more advantageous to locate there as Clennon Valley is further into the "Black Hole" of transport inaccessibility that is Torbay. Until Torbay addresses it's appalling traffic and rail inadequacies the area will continue to stagnate. A period of time into a relocation in NA would see a natural swing away from the tendency of some local youth to look towards Argyle as the team to follow................and I think you are right Dave, NA has swung more towards Argyle in recent years if the proliferation of car stickers and replica shirts is anything to go by. However the appalling price of travelling now can all work in the favour of United in years to come as people will genuinely have to address their lifestyle to minimise car usage. ................and once again, any re-location need not mean the renaming of the club - especially one named after an administrative area, that is simply pathetic!
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Post by spagbol74 on Jul 31, 2008 16:51:35 GMT
There are also a fair few City fans there as well. On way back from watching Exeter v Stevenage (FAC) last season, at least 20 City fans got off at Newton railway station, not a great big amount granted, but add into that those who went by bus or drove as well, it starts to add up  |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 16:57:19 GMT
Merse I could not disagree with you about transport problems, if the club moved to Clennon Valley. In our day Newton Spurs were close to the club and most of my mates were TUFC fans.
I could see that moving the ground to Newton, would make transport for some much easier, unless you live in Torquay,Paignton or Brixham, where most of the support comes from. So I think that really is a non starter, there is land in Torquay that would be suitable and I really believe the any team should play and have its ground, where it gets its name from.
I would point out, that I often tell people I live in Torbay, I just think it sounds nicer. That is why, I could live with a name change to Torbay. I also think it would people in Paignton and Brixham, to feel the club was also theirs and not just Torquays, as some people see it.
As long as the club owned and run the stadium, I would support it were ever it was built, just really think it needs to stay in the Bay.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 31, 2008 17:44:18 GMT
there is land in Torquay that would be suitable and I really believe the any team should play and have its ground, where it gets its name from. So where is this land apart from Torre Valley North which is after all already designated "sporting land" - please don't recommend The Willows or out on the Ring Road as I feel those are precisely the sort of "tin box" sites that have proved to be so short sighted as previously mentioned. Have you been to either Chester or Scunthorpe? surely you wouldn't wish that curse on OUR club.................better to stay we we are I venture. Capitalgull will verify a conversation we had with Steve Hayes the Managing Director of Wycombe Wanderers who is also the majority owner of the club saying how restrictive THEIR location was at Adams Park and how he felt strangled by it's arse end geography! Prime attractions need to be in prime locations! As for teams needing to be where they derive their name from.............Chelsea have NEVER played in Chelsea, Queens Park Rangers haven't been in Queens Park for nearly a century, Millwall never in Millwall, neither West Ham in West Ham - I could go on and on; it just does not add up. Bournemouth have always been in Boscombe and Brighton were always in Hove until recently and now want to leave the confines of Brighton again and as I said yesterday..............what about Grimsby in Cleethorpes. Even poor old Wimbledon only managed to settle in Kingston On Thames after all the fuss over them! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 17:59:53 GMT
You learn something everyday and I will confess, as I only follow Torquay, I do not have much knowledge of other clubs (don't want to over load my Devon brain) and did not realize so many household team names didn't have their stadium, where there name comes from. I would agree the that Torre Valley North, would be a very suitable site, but you were the one who wanted to take it to Newton. not I  I fail to see why you would call the Willows or the ring road tin box sites? do you mean by their size? Bateson has plenty of land near the willows, that a big stadium could be built in. If the bypass was ever built, it would far easier to get to a ground in that area, than to have to carry on further into Torquay. Even up the hill to the ring road would also be much easier, like I said yesterday, If the right event was put on, the people of Torbay would support it, so at the end of the day, just where any stadium would go, would not be the reason, if it turned out to be a failure. |
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Post by spagbol74 on Jul 31, 2008 18:12:18 GMT
To me, "tin-box site" is what I'd call "Meccano Stadiums", where they are all built uniformly without any individual character, as Merse says, have a look at Chester & Scunthorpe fr example. (Chester is a breeze block arena!)
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Post by the92ndfish on Jul 31, 2008 18:16:08 GMT
Interesting points gentlemen, merse my 'edge of the town' comments were indeed directed to the ring road, specifically the North Whilborough/Edginswell/Willows region, I take a pragmatic approach to the development of the town (or city or whatever you wish to call it) and accept that this region is going to dissapear under concrete within the next 20 years, theres simply too much demand on the housing front and not enough land in the 'traditional Bay', when you compare the civil discontent created by last year's plans for building in Yalberton compared to the total lack of any real disagreement with the yearly advance of the Willows and the beginnings of development in Edginswell, I know where I'd choose to build if i was a councilman or a developer. Torquay edges closer to Aller/Newton Abbot every year I remember going to Barton Junior school and looking out onto fields and horses from the playground..this is now a vast estate and main roads, the same is set for areas between TQ and NA, if NA isn't already in the Torbay conurbation, it's definitely destined to be so.
It's one of the few large expanses of flat land that could host the kind of stadium/social facility complex that I would propose, I don't believe United should move simply for the point of moving, a new site has to provide something that Plainmoor simply can't, imo this would be the public sporting facilities, the integration of the training facilities, club offices and stadium on one site and the external revenue schemes it could bring in (concerts, youth football tournaments and training schools etc). A site in this area would also be infinitely easier to access than Plainmoor for those with cars, easier to police for big games and easier to access for out of town fans (even those from Paignton would find it easier to access than Plainmoor). Even for those without cars, theres the 12 that runs the distance between TQ and NA very regularly and the club could provide buses up and down the Newton Road. In time it wouldn't end up being out in the arse end of nowhere, it'd be in the center of the North Torquay/Newton Abbot conurbation, the housing estates would develop around it, because Torbay Council damn well isn't going to find anywhere else to build, and if it proves to be a success maybe more entertainment type concepts will be build out there aswell, creating a mini entertainment center for Torquay.
This is about the long term rather than the short term, indeed Dave I do have my doubts that we could sustain Championship attendence numbers, but I believe it's theoretically possible given the combined populations of Torbay and Newton Abbot (and various other outlying towns) and projected growth figures. I don't make any assumptions it would be easy, quick or theres a magic way of doing it, but theres nothing to say that Torquay couldn't draw the figures they did in the 1960's or higher, as the much greater population and catchment area offsets the greater expenses of going to watch football.
And Indeed Merse Torbay is full of those of retirement age that wish nothing to do with anything vibrant and just want to sit around and write into the Herald Express about how Torquay was so much better in the 1970's, yet do nothing about it, and they currently dominate the political scene, but they don't have to and it doesn't have to be that way. Even giving Torbay a high retirement demographic of something like 30% still leaving something like 100,000 (rounded up estimate) non retired people, thats set to grow even more over the coming years, if these people actually got off their asses and did something, the complexion of Torbay could be changed, yes areas like Wellswood and parts of Babbacombe will always be retirement central but it doesn't mean that Torbay will always be so.
Nick Bye has the right idea in trying to change Torquay, he's just blinkered in his methods and utter slavery to high class tourists instead of trying to diversify the economy, for instance the Riviera Center wants a new partner, is prepared to gut out the building in part to facilitate it etc, why not attempt to make it a live venue arena, get people coming into Torbay from Exeter and Plymouth who don't have any facilities of those kind (The Pavilions isn't great for music), it'd pump £££ into the economy, provide something for the youth of the bay to do instead of stabbing each other and provide a catalyst for other big ideas, Plymouth and Exeter are both in rude health currently thanks to thinking big, Torbay with it's can't do attitude is dying, it's no surprise.
The only thing in life that stays the same is that everything changes, the Torbay of 20 years on shall hopefully be vastly different and much more prosperous than the dying area you see now, likewise the Torquay United of 20 years on could thrive just as much. For that I'd gladly give up Plainmoor.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 31, 2008 18:16:16 GMT
Chester is a breeze block arena! Was "Deva" the Roman word for breeze block?  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 31, 2008 18:22:10 GMT
"Fish" I agree with you wholeheartedly and you really SHOULD prepare to stand for mayor but it all hinges on or falls down around the locals who aren't in the "Grey" lobby getting off their arses and I'm afraid the local area (my old area remember) has a pretty poor track record in that respect!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 18:33:42 GMT
92ndfish another great post mate and I really think having views from people your age, helps so much. You see I will when I look at things it does tend to be the past or only the present, facts and figures.
Where as you look further forward and bring into play the fact that by then our population, would have increased etc and we would have the opportunity to attract from a much larger base of people. This is very true and taking that into consideration, I might need to change my mind on if Torquay could be a Championship side.
What do you think really needs to change to get plans like yours into reality and just where would the money come from. I think you really are on the right track, but worry it would fall at the first hurdle here in Torbay.
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Post by tqriviera on Jul 31, 2008 23:41:47 GMT
I think that we should have a little reality check here!
Plainmoor has rarely been "full" over the past decade or more and the current restriction to ca. 6,500 is only due to the new Health and Safety restrictions - who really thinks that there was no room for a few thousand more in the Play Off 2nd leg!?
If certain improvements to access and especially exit possibilities were made, together with improved terracing and barriers, it would be possible to apply for an increase in the permitted capacity. A new Grandstand covering the whole of the side of the pitch would, of course, also add at least a thousand to the permitted capacity.
The Consortium have invested significantly in excellent facilities in the Family Stand, many of which are open to all. The pitch is probably the best that we have ever had.
Let us first fill Plainmoor every match, then build a new Grandstand (with extra "facilities"), fill that and then think about a new Ground!
I do not think that the location is a major issue - even on a "big" match day, you can easily park legally within a maximum of 10 minutes walk.
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Newton Abbot is virtually the same conurbation as Torbay so I contend it would be more advantageous to locate there as Clennon Valley is further into the "Black Hole" of transport inaccessibility that is Torbay. Until Torbay addresses it's appalling traffic and rail inadequacies the area will continue to stagnate.
