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Post by aussie on Mar 19, 2009 19:23:45 GMT
If thats the case mate it would have been a waste of credit, its a tight ship up there, his phone call would have been fruitless! The club is a well run organization now, not like the previous occupants! The board back the manager or he wouldn`t be there!
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ali
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Post by ali on Mar 19, 2009 21:09:10 GMT
From the few conversations I have had the board really does back the manager and leaves the players contracts / decisions entirely down to PB, as it should be.
I think this was a difficult decision to make but the right one, the bit I am unsure about is the reaction from Steve Woods, in my opinion something does not quite ring true with his comments in the HE.
But hey ho Torquay United is bigger than one players contact and TODDY is back which is indeed excellent news.
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Post by chrish on Mar 20, 2009 9:12:46 GMT
Well. Look at it this way. Say if the club rewarded Steve Woods with a year's extention to his contract and then he picked up a injury that put him out for a substantial amount of time? Would the same people who think PB is wrong now not to offer him a new contract would actually slate him for giving a new contract to an ageing player who can't play with an injury.
Think of it another way. Say if we did actually go up this season, would Steve Woods be an automatic choice at centre half in a league 2 side? I don't think he would be. Steve Wood's finest days at Torquay came from playing alongside a fit Craig Taylor (ie the promotion season). Since Taylor's injury he's struggled in a Torquay shirt until Chris Todd played alongside him at a lower level. I thought his last two seasons in the football league saw him short of confidence which saw him drop deeper and have tendancy to hit aimless longs balls just in order to get rid of a ball that always seemed to be coming back at them.
He's a good professional though and has given us good service. But like PB, I can't see the benefit of keeping him on for another season whether we go up or not. Ellis and Robertson have improved from last season, Ellis especially, Todd is back and Brough is by all accounts playing well at Salisbury.
I'm quite surprised at what's been said on Chris Hargreaves blog about Steve Woods. Being the Captain he should be a little more diplomatic I feel as his comments just fuel a fire that there's an emerging scandal brewing at the club and PB is at the centre of it. Sometimes its quite interesting to know what goes on at your football club but personally there are things I really don't want to know about what goes on behind closed doors. I wonder if Hargreaves might also be on his way out at the end of the season. Again because of his age, as a manager, you would have to consider whether offering him an extension would be prudent.
I'm getting quite worried about how keen some people are to instantly slate PB. A manager, in whatever job, is paid to make tough decisions and take accountability for them. You have to remove personal feelings and look at the bigger picture.
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Post by Budleigh on Mar 20, 2009 10:02:07 GMT
Well said Chris Hayes....!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2009 10:58:21 GMT
Prudent ?...when did prudent ever come into it ?....anyone casting a quick glance at Iysden Christie's physical condition could work out that there was every chance it wouldn't be 'prudent' to bring him to the Club for the rest of the season on sizeable wages.
We started this thread slating Woodsie for not sticking his head in where it hurts...for not having enough scars on his forehead..in other words for not getting injured enough for the cause. Getting injured for the team was a good sign & was commendable..now someone else is criticising from the exact opposite angle that he MIGHT get injured...well in that case he really is on a hiding to nothing...damned if you do & damned if you don't.
Did Tisdale write off Rob Edwards who will be 36 this summer when Exeter got promoted ? Edwards is still playing well in City's defence. Edwards experience is a big asset to the team & he's not expected to be the one who should be outpacing the oppositions quickest attacker.
PB will obviously live or die by his decisions, personally I think a great deal of his decisions (particularly last season) are bad ones but the Club have been able to throw money at the problem ,in the form of purchasing decent players, that weaknesses in the management & coaching set up are compensated for.
Robertson might well have improved this season & Brough might be looking more competent in a Salisbury shirt than he ever did in ours but it doesn't alter the fact that Woods has been excellent this season & the side will be weaker without him.
But let's see what happens if the Board turns off the money tap to PB and the inflow of well paid players has to stop..& if genuine prudence is ever called for I think a few eyes will be opened & a lot of opinions will change.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 20, 2009 20:17:12 GMT
Chris I struggle to see what you find wrong with what Hargreaves wrote on his blog about Steve Woods. Maybe there is a hidden message that I missed, but it looked to me a good friend was just wishing his old mate all the best.
Yes Bucks will come under fire at times and some will always look to lay all the blame on him, you say that You have to remove personal feelings and look at the bigger picture.
that is one thing I think Bucks finds the hardest to do and just may have played a big part in Woods having to go in my view.
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merse
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Post by merse on Mar 20, 2009 21:14:11 GMT
Yes Bucks will come under fire at times and some will always look to lay all the blame on him, you say that You have to remove personal feelings and look at the bigger picture.that is one thing I think Bucks finds the hardest to do and just may have played a big part in Woods having to go in my view.  But you don't know Bucks personal feelings over any player, let alone Woods. You don't know because Bucks hasn't revealed them. For all you know it could be that he had to go against his personal feelings in deciding to dispense with the man he selected as his club captain last season. I wish people wouldn't claim to read into the manager's mind and I wish people wouldn't decide that their own interpretation of events is in fact the actual one and keep insisting that the manager hasn't got man management skills nor really knows what he is doing. Just satisfy yourself in the FACT that Steve Woods is but one of six central defenders on the books and that as from now he has been dispensed with. We need youth, we need experience; what we do NOT need is six central defenders so one had to go and one is out on loan. Reading the comments on the HE website once again lead one to assume that we are indeed in the (to coin a current phrase) Age Of Stupid the anti Buckle Brigade just couldn't wait to get their knives out again and some of the "legend" status being bandied about over a player who wouldn't get into my top dozen in his position during my time supporting the club is sick inducing to say the least. Look at this list of central defenders during the last fifty years and tell me that you would put Woods ahead of any of them........................ Colin Bettany, Alan Smith, Reg Wyatt, Jimmy Dunne, Ken Brown, Allan Young, Bill Kitchener, Pat Kruse, Clint Boulton, Phil Lloyd, Jim McNichol, Jim Hagan.................don't try and tell me Woods was fit to clean their boots ~ legend my arse! |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 20, 2009 22:00:32 GMT
Perhaps he'll go out on loan to Barrow like your other favourite player just has, merse!
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Post by chrish on Mar 20, 2009 22:46:15 GMT
Chris I struggle to see what you find wrong with what Hargreaves wrote on his blog about Steve Woods. Maybe there is a hidden message that I missed, but it looked to me a good friend was just wishing his old mate all the best. Yes Bucks will come under fire at times and some will always look to lay all the blame on him, you say that You have to remove personal feelings and look at the bigger picture.that is one thing I think Bucks finds the hardest to do and just may have played a big part in Woods having to go in my view. Just wishing his mate the best? Surely he can do that by phoning him or driving around to his house and saying so face to face. Why did he feel the need to make such a public show of support for a fellow player rather than the manager who picks him and the club that pays him. Before his tribute he posted a day or so before that "there are a lot of things going on at the club both on and off the field". Alpine Joe - I think you have to treat the signing of each player on their merits. Gambling on a much needed forward is different to extending a player's contract for a position where there are already 5 decent players competing. I'm pretty sure that the number target wasn't Christie but I'm equally sure that it was necessary for Buckle to bring in at least one new face during the transfer window. Christie has a decent track record at this level and slightly higher and I think he's worth a gamble. If Christie was signed as a direct replacement for Woods then fair enough, you arguement has some weight to it. I can't really understand what you said by this "We started this thread slating Woodsie for not sticking his head in where it hurts...for not having enough scars on his forehead..in other words for not getting injured enough for the cause. Getting injured for the team was a good sign & was commendable..now someone else is criticising from the exact opposite angle that he MIGHT get injured...well in that case he really is on a hiding to nothing...damned if you do & damned if you don't".Seeing as I wasn't one of those slating him in the first place how in christ's name can you link those two elements together? All I was trying to point that out was if Woods was offered a new contract and then spent most of it on the sidelines with a possible, repeat possible, injury would it have been a good idea to a) offer him a new contract or even if he stayed injury free b) to limit the opportunities of Ellis, Robertson and Brough? What are the "great deal" of decisions that Buckle ot wrong last season? The money tap? You're starting to sound like an Exeter fan at the beginning of last season when we tempted Rice, Phillips and Todd away from them. I'm actually starting to get a bit fed up with this Buckle witchhunt. Its like me getting opinions and "advice" from PB (or from anyone of you lot) about the way I do my job. Does he know why I do the things I do on a daily basis? Would he know how to manage a support contract with a French company over a safety critical train monitoring application? Should I take his advice on the best way forward or would I tell him to mind his own fecking business? If it was Tim Sills being released in similar circumstances then for the record I would be up in arms. The most successful managers in the game are the ones who make the tough decisions. Does anybody actually believe that Fergie really wanted to get rid of Jaap Stam? The club comes first. I could be very very wrong but I wonder if the return to fitness of Chris Todd has swayed Buckle's mind on offering Woods a year's extension. After Todd's initial diagnosis Buckle replaced him with Woods which was a sensible choice as he was the most experienced of the centre halves. Since then Todd has made a such a speedy recovery and Robertson and Ellis have stepped up to the breech that Woods has become surplus to requirements. You could even speculate that if Todd was still battling his illness Woods would be staying at least to the end of the season. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2009 23:16:09 GMT
Chris Hayes
It's nothing like you getting advice from PB or anyone else. I'm giving my opinion on PBs decisions to you & to other forum members, I'm not giving advice to PB.
If he's looking for advice on how to do his job from fans forums then I'd be even more concerned as to his suitability to do the job than I am already.
I think the best plan is that he should continue to make his own decisions & that we should continue to discuss amongst ourselves whether we think those decisions will prove to be good or bad for the Club.
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Mar 20, 2009 23:24:01 GMT
Chris I struggle to see what you find wrong with what Hargreaves wrote on his blog about Steve Woods. Maybe there is a hidden message that I missed, but it looked to me a good friend was just wishing his old mate all the best. Yes Bucks will come under fire at times and some will always look to lay all the blame on him, you say that You have to remove personal feelings and look at the bigger picture.that is one thing I think Bucks finds the hardest to do and just may have played a big part in Woods having to go in my view. Just wishing his mate the best? Surely he can do that by phoning him or driving around to his house and saying so face to face. Why did he feel the need to make such a public show of support for a fellow player rather than the manager who picks him and the club that pays him. Before his tribute he posted a day or so before that "there are a lot of things going on at the club both on and off the field". Alpine Joe - I think you have to treat the signing of each player on their merits. Gambling on a much needed forward is different to extending a player's contract for a position where there are already 5 decent players competing. I'm pretty sure that the number target wasn't Christie but I'm equally sure that it was necessary for Buckle to bring in at least one new face during the transfer window. Christie has a decent track record at this level and slightly higher and I think he's worth a gamble. If Christie was signed as a direct replacement for Woods then fair enough, you arguement has some weight to it. I can't really understand what you said by this "We started this thread slating Woodsie for not sticking his head in where it hurts...for not having enough scars on his forehead..in other words for not getting injured enough for the cause. Getting injured for the team was a good sign & was commendable..now someone else is criticising from the exact opposite angle that he MIGHT get injured...well in that case he really is on a hiding to nothing...damned if you do & damned if you don't".Seeing as I wasn't one of those slating him in the first place how in christ's name can you link those two elements together? All I was trying to point that out was if Woods was offered a new contract and then spent most of it on the sidelines with a possible, repeat possible, injury would it have been a good idea to a) offer him a new contract or even if he stayed injury free b) to limit the opportunities of Ellis, Robertson and Brough? What are the "great deal" of decisions that Buckle ot wrong last season? The money tap? You're starting to sound like an Exeter fan at the beginning of last season when we tempted Rice, Phillips and Todd away from them. I'm actually starting to get a bit fed up with this Buckle witchhunt. Its like me getting opinions and "advice" from PB (or from anyone of you lot) about the way I do my job. Does he know why I do the things I do on a daily basis? Would he know how to manage a support contract with a French company over a safety critical train monitoring application? Should I take his advice on the best way forward or would I tell him to mind his own fecking business? If it was Tim Sills being released in similar circumstances then for the record I would be up in arms. The most successful managers in the game are the ones who make the tough decisions. Does anybody actually believe that Fergie really wanted to get rid of Jaap Stam? The club comes first. I could be very very wrong but I wonder if the return to fitness of Chris Todd has swayed Buckle's mind on offering Woods a year's extension. After Todd's initial diagnosis Buckle replaced him with Woods which was a sensible choice as he was the most experienced of the centre halves. Since then Todd has made a such a speedy recovery and Robertson and Ellis have stepped up to the breech that Woods has become surplus to requirements. You could even speculate that if Todd was still battling his illness Woods would be staying at least to the end of the season. Spot on Chris. Totally agree. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 21, 2009 8:08:34 GMT
Chris you ask Why did he feel the need to make such a public show of support for a fellow player rather than the manager who picks him and the club that pays him. Before his tribute he posted a day or so before that "there are a lot of things going on at the club both on and off the field".
This is what Chris Hargreaves wrote on hos blog
Steve Woods
Obviously, unless you have been on Mars, if you are a Torquay fan the news that Steve Woods is no longer at the club will be common knowledge. 'Woodsy' is a top lad and a good player and will be missed by all the lads at the club. We have had a good laugh over the past eighteen months or so, and as founder members of the 'old school' have had a common bond. Although I have been speaking to Steve I just wanted to wish him, and his lovely family, all the best for the future from myself and all the boys.
Cheers Mate
I really struggle Chris to see why you feel wishing Steve well is such a problem and nothing has been written that indicates his own views and feelings about why Woods has been moved out of the club, its a blog and he and Woods have got on well at the club and If it was my blog I would have used it to give my mate my best wishes.
You say he should show his support to Buckie and the club, I'm sure Chris will be doing that out on the pitch today, but if he felt like I do know some other players feel that Woods was not treated the way he would have expected, is he not allowed to have his own views on that, are you saying that because Buckle makes the decisions every single player has to agree with them.
Yes they will have to live with them and except they have been made and as professional footballers just get on with the job they get paid to do, but if you still feel the blog entry was done to show where is support lies, then you really need to be asking why.
You also say I'm actually starting to get a bit fed up with this Buckle witchhunt I also get fed up Chris, when anyone simply asks questions about decisions made by Bucks and then gets accused of starting a witchhunt, I would love to know if you have always agreed with every decision taken by a boss you have worked for. When that has happened as I'm sure it must have, did you not discuss it with anyone, say to someone I think hes got that one all wrong.
I keep hearing the same arguments being used to defend the decision taken on Woods, we have six defenders at the club,Ellis and Robertson are the future etc etc etc.
Yes Woods was not going to be offered a new contract for next season and as has been stated that decision may well be down mainly to the club needing to reduce the playing squad next season to reduce the wage bill. Fans fully understand and except that fact, but some still fail to see and understand why other fans are upset and feel that Woods may in their eyes not have been treated fairly.
I also keep hearing how the board support Buckle, well they sure do in public as you would expect them to, he is their man, they put him in the job and its right and proper they show they are supporting him. Do you really believe that they all fully agree that Woods should have been moved out in the way he was?
Do you believe that once he had made his mind up he was not going to offer Woods a new contract, that he then at that time decided he would not wants Woods to finish the season for the club, one where he has been playing nearly at his best form in the eight seasons he has been with the club.
No. I don't believe that for one second and I don't believe Ellis would have been in Bucks plans for the remainder of the games left this season, if as someone who might know has suggested, it came down to Bucks feeling he could not be seen as weak.
Hargreaves said 'Woodsy' is a top lad and a good player and will be missed by all the lads at the club maybe because it was being claimed that Woods staying would be disruptive to the team, I would say it could be down to Woods having the support of many of his team mates and someone not liking that fact.
I support TUFC and therefore support the manager the board may feel is the best man to do the job, that does not mean I blindly have to agree with ever decision the said manager makes, no to him mine and your views do not matter, he is the one who will live by the consequences of all his decisions and will be judged in the end on them.
That does not make me or any other fan guilty of being part of some witchhunt, just freely expressing a view and one that may just feel that on the Woods saga, Buckle could have handled it so much better, but then thats all about man management and the jury is still out on that one.
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merse
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Post by merse on Mar 21, 2009 8:54:24 GMT
That does not make me or any other fan guilty of being part of some witchhunt, just freely expressing a view and one that may just feel that on the Woods saga, Buckle could have handled it so much better, but then thats all about man management and the jury is still out on that one. To assume that one has been allowed the full picture of the actual sequence of events leading up to Woods' hasty disposal would be as foolish as believing that the Dunkirk Evacuation was a great victory. The normal run of events when a player is playing out his contract in the knowledge that it will not be renewed is that the player continues to give of his best in the interests of the club, the team and himself. It's been happening for year after year, it will continue to do so in the future. Occasionally (usually due to the particular character of the player concerned) it is felt best by the manager that the player leaves forthwith, and it is almost entirely due to the fact that the manager doesn't feel the above criteria are going to be met by the player. The manager is employed to make those decisions, and if anyone on the board has misgivings about that then they are best served expressing those within the confines of the boardroom where the consensus of opinion MIGHT be to suggest or instruct the manager to make an attempt to keep the player on board in the interests of financial prudence given that if he leaves a pay off will need to be negotiated and therefore the club might as well try to extract some service for the money they are committed to paying out. If the manager, having made that attempt; still feels it is prudent that the player leaves, the player leaves - simple as. If then, in those circumstances; the supporters expect the manager to give the player some sort of "bad reference" by openly revealing his exact reasons for coming to that decision; they are I'm afraid barking up the tree of madness. Remember William Gallas and his veiled threat to score "own goals" if he was held to his Chelsea contract anyone? Different players react in different ways when they don't get things their way and it is the manager's job to take all that on board and run the club accordingly. The fact that the club is sitting where it is in the league table and has accrued the substantial revenue from two seasons of fairly successful cup campaigning suggest that the manager does indeed know what he is doing. Do you not think that the members of the board who employ him are not very much aware of that? Should, they collectively form an opinion that he is not doing a good job; his own contract negotiations would no doubt take the same road as Mr Woods and I humbly suggest that is not about to happen. Man management? I've known of three rather good managers who have employed such diverse "phsycology" as sending a new multi million pound arrival to walk his dog on his first day of training, another to throw shoes at his star player and a third who on extracting that one of his players self assessed main strength was his "pace" sent him on a run down the bookies to get the manager's bet on before the two thirty went under starter's orders! In short, the club employ a rather good manager to run the club to their directives and I don't feel that for one moment he is not generally fulfilling those expectancies.................leave the guy alone to continue doing so! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 21, 2009 10:13:24 GMT
Merse you say
The normal run of events when a player is playing out his contract in the knowledge that it will not be renewed is that the player continues to give of his best in the interests of the club, the team and himself. It's been happening for year after year, it will continue to do so in the future. Occasionally (usually due to the particular character of the player concerned) it is felt best by the manager that the player leaves forthwith, and it is almost entirely due to the fact that the manager doesn't feel the above criteria are going to be met by the player.
I'm sorry but when the club captain states
'Woodsy' is a top lad and a good player and will be missed by all the lads at the club
When the evidence on the pitch where it matters clearly shows that Woods has been our best defender this season.
When the player himself stated
"I have come this far, played more than 30 games and I would have liked to see it through to the end of the season."
Then I find it very distasteful that you would even try to put a slur on Steve Woods by implying there is a problem with his character by making remarks like this
, it will continue to do so in the future. Occasionally (usually due to the particular character of the player concerned) it is felt best by the manager that the player leaves forthwith
We all know you don't like Steve Woods, but the real people who do know him, his fellow players and mates, sure feel he is a decent bloke and I for one would trust their views over someone who can't let go of something that happened in a carpark such a long time ago.
Steve Woods in my view would have continued to give his very best out on the pitch and would have played his part in trying to get the team promoted and you will never convince me otherwise.
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Post by crispygull on Mar 21, 2009 12:21:33 GMT
Personally I think the return to fitness of Chris Todd has a lot to do with this decision.
If, as has been suggested, Steve Woods has been "agitating" for a decision on a new contract for a little while now and given that Paul Buckle knows that he is not going to offer him one, but not only that but he also knows that his first choice centre half has returned to form and fitness and he wants to bring him back from Salisbury and put him straight back in the team for the run in - then I can see his dilemma.
We should not forget that Steve Woods is a strong character, our longest serving player, former club captain and no doubt someone who is well respected in the dressing room. Given all this, you have to wonder how a senior figure like him would have taken to not only being told that he is not getting a new contract but also that he is no longer first choice !
I suspect that knowing this, Paul Buckle felt that in the best interests of harmony in the dressing room,it was better to make a clean break now.
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