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Post by hullgull on Sept 7, 2013 16:38:45 GMT
Very very hard to be positive at the moment,am trying though......just after half time they had 18 shots to our effin 3....don't know what the final count is though,I daren't look.....as has been said in a previous post,this lathering has been coming...I am hoping with this defeat,it's the massive kick the arse we need......with a bit of luck might makes us realise,this isn't acceptable at this club......so come on you yellows sort this.......we will get through this.....si
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petef
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Post by petef on Sept 7, 2013 16:40:07 GMT
Hawley and Ball are both capable of getting plenty of goals. The problem is service. Chapell was great against Northampton but teams have cottoned on to that since and shut him out of the game, and there's no creativity aside from that, with a particular dearth from the middle because it was always intended that all our creativity would come from the flanks People here in the past have suggested that "all we need to do is get it to a winger, cross it into a big man and we'll score goals". This is why that doesn't work any more Without wanting to be the one preaching about one set of tactics being the "right" way, I'd say that with our current squad, we need to play 3 central midfielders: Lathrope holding, Harding box-to-box, Craig as the creator. Put Ball wide left (the guy can cross the ball and is deceptively quick when he gets going), Chapell wide right, and have Hawley on his own through the middle. That way we can control the midfield and have creativity from a number of different areas on the pitch. I know people want 4-4-2 and old school tactics but they're out of date and we're going to get relegated if we keep playing that way. The Northampton game showed this - when we abandoned the long ball stuff, we looked great Been saying it for weeks wrong formation with the players we have and unable to switch tactics and just stubbornly stick with two up front two redundant wingers who offer little defensively and two very basic midfielders. It will never work. Ten games they say well I've seen enough already. |
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Post by Swanny on Sept 7, 2013 17:00:57 GMT
Bearing in mind we're more or less stuck with what we've got, surely now it's time to see what Knill is really made of. To his credit, Ling in his first season tweaked the formation when we were struggling early on and it worked wonders. Is Knill tactically astute enough to do similair? I don't know his history well enough to know how flexible he is. But what is sure is that currently the pieces of the jigsaw are not fitting at all offensively and is in need of a major re-think. I agree with JamesB and PeteF, the only time we have looked remotely decent is when we play the ball to feet. We have not got the players who suit playing a rigid 4-4-2 with wingers for the reasons I mentioned above.
Just heard the Knill post match interview. At least he sounded honest about the awful performance and says he takes responsibility for that. He also confirmed there won't be any loan players coming in unless we ship some players out first.
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Post by frankfurt gull on Sept 7, 2013 17:06:53 GMT
Our boiler went last week and we were told a replacement would be in within 3 working days. Unfortunately the truck delivering the boiler was nicked and our boiler with it. I´ve been having cold showers since last Friday week and I´m not very happy about it - and then this result just to round the week off!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 7, 2013 17:22:37 GMT
Bearing in mind we're more or less stuck with what we've got, surely now it's time to see what Knill is really made of. To his credit, Ling in his first season tweaked the formation when we were struggling early on and it worked wonders. Is Knill tactically astute enough to do similair? I don't know his history well enough to know how flexible he is. But what is sure is that currently the pieces of the jigsaw are not fitting at all offensively and is in need of a major re-think. I agree with JamesB and PeteF, the only time we have looked remotely decent is when we play the ball to feet. We have not got the players who suit playing a rigid 4-4-2 with wingers for the reasons I mentioned above. Just heard the Knill post match interview. At least he sounded honest about the awful performance and says he takes responsibility for that. He also confirmed there won't be any loan players coming in unless we ship some players out first. Yes, would agree with that, there comes a point when a gelling period ends and a rethink is necessary and we are very close to that point. Did think we had a very tough start which is not conducive to building confidence but as usual will await match reports before coming to conclusions. |
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petef
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Post by petef on Sept 7, 2013 17:50:51 GMT
Personally believe this "gelling period" nonsense is an excuse and a "get out" for poor individual performances and tactics. Good enough players who are given tactics they are comfortable and used to playing with will will gel pretty bloody quickly and you only have to look at our opening day opponents Wimbledon to realise who had the better signings and made the best of their resources in the close season.
At the other end of the talent spectrum just Imagine England giving us that excuse in defeat that the players need ten games to get to know each other and gel. Is there really any difference?
Any hard nosed manager worth his salt would quickly realise he has problems and at least try and change things around and tweak his squad and tactics instead of remaining on this stubborn single minded course that is simply never going to be successful, unless of course he can motivate and instill some confidence in what is looking like a very average to poor squad of players.
No more loan signings unless he can ship a few out so he has to work with what he's got so he had better switch on to the problems pronto and do something to halt this confidence draining slide.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 7, 2013 19:06:37 GMT
No, I don't think you can excuse poor individual performances although everyone can have a bad day at the office and the difference between success and failure can often be very small. Confidence is also a factor and form can vary substantially over a season. However, six of the starting line up today are new to the club, some only came in days before the season start a month ago. Chappell was only briefly in on loan.
On an individual basis, look at Saah to see how long it may take for a player to settle. As a team, look at what happened in Ling's first season. Rome wasn't built in a day and imo the jury is still out....
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Sept 7, 2013 20:26:30 GMT
But even then, the whole idea that Saah wasn't at his best when he arrived is a bit of a myth. The problem is he didn't live up to people's expectations of what we were getting, and they created this idea that he wasn't playing that well. I never bought into that - I thought he was good from the first match, and that his "improvement" came from not being exposed as much when Lathrope was brought in to sit in front of the back four
The same is happening now with Ben Harding. He's facing a lot of criticism because he isn't living up to fan expectations, which ignores the fact that he has been brought in to play a particular role in the team. He's a perfectly capable player, and it's not his fault that his manager has paired him with a similar, slightly more technically-limited centre midfielder who can't tackle
I think there is a certain amount of gelling to be done but I did feel it was an excuse after that first game, because it didn't look like the issues were gelling-related. We didn't make any noticeable strides over the next 2 games that I saw, and judging by the reports I've read last week and today, we don't seem to have made much progress since either. Meanwhile, Wimbledon are doing well
It's funny how all the people who said "Ling's too stubborn, he never changes his tactics" are curiously silent on that now despite Knill essentially refusing to change the side's shape across the first few games of this season. He deserves a chance to change it, but he doesn't seem too willing to do so. I know it's a bit of a cliché to accuse a manager of having favourites but there are some players clearly totally out of favour right now and Knill seems to be picking his teams from a total of about 13/14 players. That can't be healthy, short term or long term - he seems to have got a bit of slack for trying "youngsters", despite only really playing Sullivan
Having said that, judging by the reaction to today's result, this might be the end of his honeymoon here...
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 7, 2013 21:57:06 GMT
Agreed that he wasn't that bad to start with and Lathrope did add that extra defensive protection which changed our fortunes around but also definitely improved over those first few months.
We did ok against Hartlepool's last week but seem to have taken a step back today. Fleetwood's forum described us as a terrible team with an outstanding keeper. In respect of Knill not changing things around, I think he has been quite frank and said he was to wait for 10 games before deciding on whether to change things which he obviously considers to be a suitable bedding down period. Ling two years ago waited until October and 14 league games until changing things around. I think Buckle gave his promoted side a similar period before looking for Loanees to come in.
So, do the answers lie in the building or other players have to be brought in? Think you are right about central midfield being the pivotal point to look at....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 23:32:44 GMT
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Post by stefano on Sept 8, 2013 0:55:39 GMT
Amendment : Fleetwood Town 2 Torquay United 4  2nd Amendment: Fleetwood Town 3 Torquay United 4. If we carry on like this we will only get a point!  Sorry for the mis-placed optimism. I can't see us grabbing a point now!  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2013 6:49:00 GMT
Sorry to say that it was obvious from a minute or two into the game that we were not going to come home with Stafano's point(s). The game showed up the difference between a team which has (or behaves as if it has) money to spend on promotion-winning players and one that hasn't. To be fair to them, though, Fleetwood were better not just individually but collectively too; they were very quick to organise themselves and to close us down long before we got into their penalty box.
Man of the match by a mile for United was Martin Rice. He fluffed a simple catch for the third goal but was probably suffering from shell shock by that time, having made several heroic saves.
Positive spin time: at least we were there! There was a time last season when it was looking very much as if we'd be visiting some even less prepossessing towns and stadiums than Fleetwood.
Reality check: we aren't among the contenders. We should pick up points against the weaker teams in the division but money talks and if we ain't got it we can't spend it. Fleetwood's players are on bigger salaries than ours because they are better footballers, which is why they have a good chance of going up this season and we do not. |
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Post by lambrettagull on Sept 8, 2013 8:49:05 GMT
Knill surely needs to change things now and not wait for 10 games to pass. All waiting will do is provide us with more points dropped. We have already lost points at home to teams we need to beat just in order to stay in this league. I have only posted on here once since Knills appointment, because I wanted to wait the 10 games to see if my thoughts are correct. This whole idea of managing an attacking team that scores goals seems a bit niave to me. Nice idea though. You need the right players (and manager)to achieve that and some of ours are not up to standard. Ling worked the team better with inadequate players. He received criticism galore because we were not attacking enough, but he knew how to get results by playing a different way. The main short comings in Lings final season was that the board did not give him the support ie replace Eunan and a regular goalscorer. It is so easy for a new manager to read the boards then say what the fans want to hear. Producing is something else and I am not, and never have been sure, that Knill is the right man. To get rid of Ling, we should have replaced him with someone better, and in my opinion we have not. Though I hope I am wrong. Knill must stay now and see what the season brings. But if the trapdoor beckons we need to make swift changes. This gelling rubbish is an insult to the fans intelligence so I dont buy that at all. Long way to go and it will be tough. We will not be in the playoffs but if changes are made, I hope we will have a fair season, then build from there.
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petef
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Post by petef on Sept 8, 2013 10:28:39 GMT
Eagerly awaiting Knills post match response on the official site but he surely knows that what has been dished up so far is relegation performances and form.
Hurried down the tunnell after the final whistle without acknowledging the supporters who had traveled over 500 miles to watch that dreadful display, obviously had plenty on his mind that needed addressing in the changing rooms but should at least have acknowledged the long suffering supporters.
Could this be the side to get a hammering next week at Rochdale?
Rice Tonge Pearce Downes Nicholson Mansell Harding Ball Hawley Bodin Chapell Personally I feel that many of these players have had their chance to stake a claim and that others in the squad deserve their chance but just as important is the way he is setting the team up and if we cannot put the opposition under pressure we sure need to know how to defend well in numbers and give nothing away. Lets at least start by being tough to beat and build from there. To not change a failing system would be naive and crazy but does he have the balls to drop the players that are under performing Harding who has contributed little has been untouchable.
Time to get tough and make some changes before the confidence is drained completely from the squad. Pride comes before a fall as the saying goes.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 8, 2013 16:24:15 GMT
Sorry to say that it was obvious from a minute or two into the game that we were not going to come home with Stafano's point(s). The game showed up the difference between a team which has (or behaves as if it has) money to spend on promotion-winning players and one that hasn't. To be fair to them, though, Fleetwood were better not just individually but collectively too; they were very quick to organise themselves and to close us down long before we got into their penalty box.
Man of the match by a mile for United was Martin Rice. He fluffed a simple catch for the third goal but was probably suffering from shell shock by that time, having made several heroic saves.
Positive spin time: at least we were there! There was a time last season when it was looking very much as if we'd be visiting some even less prepossessing towns and stadiums than Fleetwood.
Reality check: we aren't among the contenders. We should pick up points against the weaker teams in the division but money talks and if we ain't got it we can't spend it. Fleetwood's players are on bigger salaries than ours because they are better footballers, which is why they have a good chance of going up this season and we do not. Thanks for the match report! |
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