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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 13:52:24 GMT
Before I read Jon's post last night I was going to make the point that everything and nothing has changed about Torquay United since 2007.
"Everything" in the sense to which Jon alludes. We are now a far more plausible Football League club in terms of facilities, infrastructure, professionalism and outlook. When I travelled around to away matches 5-10 years ago I really felt we'd slipped behind other clubs. We were carefully managed but we were a diminishing proposition. Regardless of Chris Roberts, we were headed in one direction.
I feel that far less these days. Now I sense we could go up, down or remain constant in the way that football clubs have a habit of doing. That's actually a kind of progress to see things like that: it's about a football team after all.
Where "nothing" - or at least little - has changed is that we remain one of the smaller clubs in the division. And this, we must note, is at a time when there are 8-10 good candidates for League membership from outside. The attendance figures are illuminating as are Wildebeeste's historical points. And Jon, for his part, has previously argued that we're around the 17th or 18th (I think) club in magnitude in this league on various indicators. In fact, were some of the larger ex-League clubs to return, we could again find ourselves in Jon's bottom quartile of the division through no real fault of our own.
Which rather suggests that the club's owners have been able to vastly improve the club but not really - or yet anyway - "grow" it in terms of support, cultural importance and commercial activity. Perhaps that's a disappointment to them. I don't know the board members but I guess they're the usual mixture of dreamers, realists,optimists and pessimists. They may have shared a general initial vision but they probably each had a slightly different view of what could be achieved. Yet I'd imagine they all harboured a belief that crowds could be increased to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure I would have believed similarly - however cautiously - if I'd been part of such an exciting and confident project.
You wonder how that "inability" - rather than "failure" which I think is too harsh a word - to grow has impacted on the board's outlook. Perhaps they always knew it would be "one step at a time". Or that there were limits. Perhaps it's still relatively early days or, more likely, a time for level-headed reassessment. We are, after all, in the sixth year of the venture; a time when equilibrium is reached after progress and effort?
But let's imagine that there is some disillusionment that more people aren't coming through the turnstile. If it were me on the board I'd share that feeling. I'd now be proceeding more cautiously whilst being immensely proud of our achievements to date.
Think about it and the board and their employees' achievements can be seen as taking the club through at least four stages from competitive Conference club to a plausible League 2 club. But the fifth stage (and possibly beyond) of really "upping the ante" looks a rather different proposition. This may remain on the books as an aspiration, it may be on hold or "reality" may have intervened. Indeed keeping pace at stage four may be a big and worthy enough job in itself. Holding where we are for another ten years - with improvements all the time in keeping with our rivals - would be a job well done for me. Others will disagree for sure. Indeed, such a view would have been an anathema for me when I was half my current age. But not now.
Yet you can only do so much as a director or administrator. Football is football and football is fragile. Managers and directors make bad decisions; players get injuries; the luck may run contrary. Relegation happens and not just to the poorly-run and inefficient. Likewise promotion can "sort of happen". We could have been promoted in each of the last two seasons. I sense we won't be going anywhere this year. Next season it may be up, down or no change.
My maximum aspiration - but not an expectation - for the club is a few seasons in League 1. I can't be greedy because, after a while, things would probably catch up with us. It would be nice to dream of the Championship but it's highly likely that would see expenditure (on wages in particular) outstripping income and a rather painful fall from grace afterwards.
My minimum anticipation is for Torquay United to be a decent Conference club with good facilities and a fighting chance of getting back in the Football League. That may appear small-minded but that's a kind of reality for a club of our scope and not something that should cast a sleight on our self-regard. A while ago James mentioned the possibility of Conference football within five years. I'm not sure if he said it "could" happen again or "would" do. Either way, the possibility can never be discounted. Name of the game, folks. It's about league tables. Yet, whatever happens in the long-run, this little period in our history - with the new stand, training facilities and the rest - needs to be seen as a significant spell in the club's story. In this way I believe future historians will set these times in positive light. But they'll know the next chapter and we don't.
And, of course, the club's ownership will change again one day. We can only hope it's left in a better state than it was found. Or, better still, an advance on where it was on returning to the Football League. The signs remain promising so far.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Jan 3, 2013 14:03:14 GMT
But surely the club are doing something? Again, it doesn't matter if they are doing something - what matters is that people think they are doing something. And clearly, at the moment, they don't think they are doing enough In fairness to Simon Baker, he has made a couple of comments in recent months that the aim is to get up to League One. But this hasn't been followed up. Aside from the manager, who from the club is regularly out there in the media talking about the club and talking up what they're doing? Essentially, what's more important than actually doing things is having a cheerleader to point these things out and explain them. How have the club followed up the opening of the Bench? It was all well and good building it but aside from the initial fanfare they haven't said anything about it - you can't expect people to turn up to go in a new stand if people don't know there's a new stand or that it's quite good I suppose the long and the short of it is poor PR. The club might be doing progressive things but it's not portraying a progressive image. I don't think I've seen anyone say they think the club is upwardly mobile. If the club genuinely wants to be run as a business to make a profit, that's not good. I don't think it's good enough to just do things today, especially in a recession Also I'm just watching the Welsh news. The main headline is about how Swansea City have brought over £50 million into the local economy since promotion to the Premier League. They're not a rich club. They don't have a sugardaddy owner - 20% of the club is owned by the supporters trust. They're being run at a profit, or at least a very small loss. And it wasn't that long ago they were down with us in the bottom tier
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 15:30:14 GMT
From 250 miles away I always considered Torquay to be a sort of South Western version of Northern clubs like Darlo, Halifax and Chester. No - they haven't got beaches. Try Scarborough or Southport. I like that reply from Jon. It's making a witty riposte, stating something that is blindingly obvious and - perhaps - saying a bit more at the same time. Just the thing to engage my thoughts on a wet, dark afternoon in Skipton. The parallels between the football clubs in Torquay, Scarborough and Southport are valid (although we need to consider Southport's proximity to Liverpool). Three resorts and football has been rather more successful in Torquay than the other two. A triumph but, at the same time, is Jon hinting at the difficulties of keeping professional football alive in Torquay? Yet think through some other resorts and their football history: Great Yarmouth; Margate; Ramsgate; Hastings; Eastbourne; Worthing; Bognor Regis; Weymouth; Weston-super-Mare; New Brighton; Morecambe. We've not done so badly have we? None of those places are mega-resorts but nor are they piddly little places. And, in the seaside sense, nor is Torquay. Torquay, Torbay - whatever you like - is actually one of Britain's larger resorts. It's not a windswept fish quay with a few bathing huts and some knackered old donkeys as is sometimes portrayed. In football terms it's punched its weight and is in the seaside resorts' football premier league: Blackpool; Brighton; Southend; Bournemouth and Torquay roughly in that order. But it ain't been easy as we know. What, indeed, is Jon saying to Wildebeeste's comparison between Torquay and clubs such as Darlington, Chester and Halifax? Maybe nothing other than that those places don't have beaches. But perhaps there's a suggestion that these towns were actually better-placed than Torquay when it came to professional football? And, even if the answer is "about the same", where are their football clubs now? And it's funny how such clubs were often dismissed as "dead wood" by southern commentators and writers when I was a lad. That was invariably in the same breath as arguing a Football League future for Yeovil (haven't they done well?), Kettering, Maidstone, Chelmsford, Guildford, Weymouth, Bath City and a few others. Why, even an acquaintance of mine around the Devon non-league clubs recently described Stockport County as "dead wood waiting to be chopped". By that measure you wonder where Torquay United sits. And that's a potential question to be asked in the context of Wildebeeste viewing us from North Derbyshire for all those years. Would Torquay United leaving the league ever have been a surprise to him? Maybe not. "As others see us" and all that business..... You'll know by now that I didn't think there was anything hugely shocking about Torquay United being relegated to the Conference. Bloody disappointing, extremely upsetting but hardly outlandish. As much as I'm glad we're back in the Football League, I never felt that - not for a single second - we were out of place in the Conference and never subscribed to the psychological damage and "stigma" of it all. But what interests me is that, in returning to the Football League so quickly (possibly the "best return" for a fair time now), it became seen as a regaining of our "rightful place" (whatever that means) and the basis for Great Expectations. That's been evident in these channels at times this season and - as my earlier post today may suggest - I wonder if we need to get a grip on that one.
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Post by stefano on Jan 3, 2013 16:19:20 GMT
You'll know by now that I didn't think there was anything hugely shocking about Torquay United being relegated to the Conference. Bloody disappointing, extremely upsetting but hardly outlandish. As much as I'm glad we're back in the Football League, I never felt that - not for a single second - we were out of place in the Conference and never subscribed to the psychological damage and "stigma" of it all. But what interests me is that, in returning to the Football League so quickly (possibly the "best return" for a fair time now), it became seen as a regaining of our "rightful place" (whatever that means) and the basis for Great Expectations. That's been evident in these channels at times this season and - as my earlier post today may suggest - I wonder if we need to get a grip on that one. Sorry can't be done. Six of my first nine seasons supporting were in the equivalent of League One and in five of those nine seasons we mounted serious promotion challenges. League One is clearly our rightful place and will always remain so. If you think I am talking through my a*s just go on PASOTI where you will find hundreds of delusional Janners believing Argyle's rightful place is the Championship or with some even the Premiership!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 16:51:34 GMT
I think you're correct in the points you make - but I expect that a website in the 80's would have very little to talk about as it would be so bloody depressing! The idea of a Torquay United website existing in the 1980s is a delicious prospect. I'm pretty sure I would have been cast in the role of a young upstart who lived hundreds of miles away, rarely saw a game at Plainmoor and had a opinion about absolutely bloody everything be it football, music, politics or whatever. And, at the risk of being provocative, the site would have to had featured Alan Merson who (I hear anyway) was in his absolute pomp at the time. And I'm convinced it would have been lively most of the time through the Green, O'Farrell (again), Rioch, Webb, Morgan and Knowles years. Even a few threads from The Short Span of John Sims as well. Of course the Webb seasons would have been something else. For I'm sure that, by now, we know that message board users are more prone to negativity than positivity and pessimism rather than optimism. There would have been relatively few posting in 1984, 1985 and 1986 (remembering the size of our crowds) but they would have been largely angry and I bet a good few arguments would have broken out. What's more, when it was quiet, there was always the Miners' Strike and Thatcher. And a bit more Thatcher. And more of her too I imagine. It's funny looking back on those times for Torquay United: the long relative uneventfulness of 1972-84; the awfulness of 1984-87; the revival of 1987-91. Yes, you do wonder what we would have talked about at the quieter times but, as this season has proved, there's always something to discuss. That would be true even for seasons that history would later record as nondescript. Indeed, remember how it was recently argued that sites such as this will provide a true record of each season. The response was that was only true to the point and, instead, message boards say more about how some football fans behave and how they see events at the time. So, rest assured, even in the dullest of seasons much would have been said about matters of little consequence. That's a reminder, perhaps, that football fans now seem set to record their thoughts electronically forever more. Or at least in some form not yet invented. It may be that message boards like this are a passing fancy but something will be along in their place. And, should a researcher ever do any analysis, I'd contend that their verdict on message boards would be that things are rarely as bad as indicated or reported (unless Dave Webb managed your club when Maggie was Prime Minister). Let's just imagine a thread from 1987 entitled "How will the next twenty-five years pan out?" I bet that - whether the topic was Torquay United, football, politics or the State of the World - that things would not have turned out as dreadfully as predicted. Not even from those bemoaning "I don't know what the country is coming to!"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 17:10:40 GMT
Sorry can't be done. Six of my first nine seasons supporting were in the equivalent of League One and in five of those nine seasons we mounted serious promotion challenges. League One is clearly our rightful place and will always remain so. If you think I am talking through my a*s just go on PASOTI where you will find hundreds of delusional Janners believing Argyle's rightful place is the Championship or with some even the Premiership! Happy New Year, Stefano. It's always good to be corrected by someone who is able to see things in such clear context. But I beg to differ with the posters who go on PASOTI. Surely Argyle's true place is in the Champions League? After all, don't they say that Plymouth is the largest village in Europe never to have hosted top-flight football? Or something like that anyway.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 17:29:57 GMT
Have you noticed that our current home city has both a Plymouth Road and an Argyle Street, Barton? How did that happen, I wonder?
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Jan 3, 2013 17:38:38 GMT
I don't think it would be the worst outcome if we were to end up in the Conference long term. It's probably our "rightful" place at the moment given the "big clubs" below us in the pyramid and the likes of Crawley and Fleetwood with their inexplicable wealth. The Conference has a nice little niche of its own. It's not so bad Having said that, that doesn't mean I would be particularly happy about going there right now. Recent history suggests the bottom 2 leagues and the Conference are quite fluid - look at the way Stevenage went straight up from the Conference to the top of League One, despite having grounds no bigger than ours. The gap between the top of the Conference and mid-table in League One is probably the smallest it's ever been - I know several clubs did Conference/League Two back-to-back promotions but they quickly came back down again. I do think the opportunity is there for us to push on into League One and potentially become established there, or at least become a yo-yo club. And who knows - we might get lucky one year like Stevenage or pre-Russian Bournemouth (and to a lesser extent Exeter and Rochdale when they went pretty close) and sneak up into the play-offs, and that's a complete lottery, not to mention quite financially rewarding Also having done some research a few weeks ago, I'd add that the idea that our attendances in League One were no different to League Two is a bit of a myth - our average attendance in 2004-05 was 3511, our highest average attendance since 1971-72, which was the year we were relegated from the Third Division after a 5 year run there. The confusion may come because our average attendance in 2003-04, the year we were promoted, was only just lower at 3460, which again was only just higher than 2002-03 when it was 3132 (obviously people liked Leroy). This year we're on for an average attendance of 2633 so far, which is 2 higher than two seasons ago, but over 200 lower than last year. It's also coincidentally exactly the same as the average attendance the year we were relegated to the Conference
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Post by stewart on Jan 3, 2013 18:47:32 GMT
a shockingly depressing under performance and result.but no real surprise.we are a squad in decline.and i hate ling and his tactics its ultra boring and not working.He is still banging the we have no money drum.well the fans know too well 650 grand was made in the summer but not re invested in the squad.It is now totally obvious we are far worse than the last two seasons teams.We still are not safe from relegation and on this latest of many poor performances we could find ourselves in a dogfight if not careful.something this present lot arent any good at sadly I completely share your views about the current manager and, unfortunately, this is all you are going to get as long as he is in situ. I was hoping that he would be looking to sign a forward who could play with Rene Howe as a duo, as none of his other attack minded players have come up to scratch. But oh no, he is after a player who will be there to deputise if Howe is injured or suspended. Martin Ling is one of those managers who is obsessed with plans and formations, most of them based on caution and defending in numbers, and with finding players who can fit into his "way" and "do a job". A commonly used phrase on here is: "in Lingy we trust", but my response is: "Why?". Financial restrictions or not, for me he is bringing down the image of the club with his sterile tactics, and, for me, the sooner he is gone, the better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 19:15:23 GMT
Have you noticed that our current home city has both a Plymouth Road and an Argyle Street, Barton? How did that happen, I wonder? Loads of streets named "Argyle" or "Argyll" in Victorian Britain. Didn't old Queen Vic have a thing about Scotland? Or more particularly that Scottish servant of hers. It was certainly the time when the English really discovered Scotland as a place to holiday and all that tartanry and kailyard cobblers started.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 19:40:27 GMT
No - they haven't got beaches. Try Scarborough or Southport. Yet think through some other resorts and their football history: Great Yarmouth; Margate; Ramsgate; Hastings; Eastbourne; Worthing; Bognor Regis; Weymouth; Weston-super-Mare; New Brighton; Morecambe. We've not done so badly have we? Hey, don't forget Hartlepool. There is a beach there, or at least a mile to the South at Seaton Carew, notable for its sun, sand and nuclear power station. Pools have always struck me as beneath every other team in the League but that might be because my childhood was dominated by the 1963 Football Champions annual. Then there is also Workington, which for a few famous years boasted a Football League club as well as Rugby League and speedway teams. And what about Sunderland? More sand on the beaches there than Brighton, I bet!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 19:42:22 GMT
We still are not safe from relegation and on this latest of many poor performances we could find ourselves in a dogfight if not careful.something this present lot arent any good at sadly You're correct in saying that we're not safe from relegation. I imagine that teams have been relegated from where we are now. But, to take the proverbial fifty points as the place to be, that leaves us to get 17 points from 22 games. To achieve this on the button would make us slightly worse than the weakest team was over the first half of the season. Now you might say that the result against Wimbledon shows that to be possible. But, statistically, we'll need to be seriously bad.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 20:28:53 GMT
Hey, don't forget Hartlepool. There is a beach there, or at least a mile to the South at Seaton Carew, notable for its sun, sand and nuclear power station. Pools have always struck me as beneath every other team in the League but that might be because my childhood was dominated by the 1963 Football Champions annual. Then there is also Workington, which for a few famous years boasted a Football League club as well as Rugby League and speedway teams. And what about Sunderland? More sand on the beaches there than Brighton, I bet! And I thought you were going to make a case for Grimsby and Portsmouth on the basis of Cleethorpes and Southsea. Indeed the Vetch was also particularly near to a decent stretch of sand. But we're talking proper resorts I'm afraid.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 22:40:14 GMT
If you've never holidayed in Workington you haven't lived!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2013 22:49:13 GMT
If you've never holidayed in Workington you haven't lived! I once spent a night in a bed and breakfast establishment in St Bees if that counts. The insects in the room were of zoological importance and the corroded bath a sight to behold. We left wondering if it had been used by generations of Sellafield workers.
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