Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 13:54:34 GMT
Wildebeeste’s post on another topic got me thinking about some of the things that have changed since we were earnest kids reading Soccer Star hundreds of miles apart. Two or three themes: settled teams that you can name years later; the decline of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish international football; the increased likelihood of a big star emerging from Sochaux rather than Scunthorpe. None of which is to say that the game is now worse. Far, far from it as always needs to be emphasised when making historical comparisons. It’s just that little things change and sometimes you miss them. You may have others to add. Or you may have a more contemporary perspective.
Overall I guess there are now far more technical and tactical playing matters to think about in the middle of all the analysis. Certainly TV has greatly enhanced people's understanding of what happens on the pitch. That's brilliant but I hope it's not at the expense of people discussing the game's cultural aspects. That's often more than half the fun.
And you know something? Wildebeeste is correct. That was the “default team” when Manchester City won the league in 1967/68. According to my Playfair annual (not always wholly accurate to be truthful), ten of those players played at least thirty-three league games that season. The exception was Francis Lee who only joined from Bolton in the autumn.
It’s entirely in keeping that Wildebeeste can remember that side. It’s not necessarily because he’s prone to that type of thing. It’s just that many of us can trot off old teams like that because - quite simply - the best (and sometimes even ordinary) teams were “settled”. That gives us a warm nostalgic glow even if it frequently meant tactical short-sightedness on behalf of managers and the brutal running into the ground of injured players.
And the Manchester City team which won the cup in 1969? Dowd in place of Mulhearn; Booth for Heslop; the rest is unaltered.
Manchester United’s European Cup winning team in 1968? Pretty much what you’d expect based on the number of starts made by each player that season. The exception was Shay Brennan in place of Francis Burns. Law was injured but both Kidd and Aston had played the majority of league games.
By contrast, in forty-five years time, you may have more difficulty in remembering Chelsea’s FA Cup and European Cup winning teams of 2012. The two starting line-ups differed in three positions and four players, who appeared in a considerable number of league games, did not start either match.
The switch to the squad game is well-documented. It’s progressive and it’s pragmatic. But there’s a little plank of familiarity that those of older generations occasionally miss amidst all the rotation. But what if you haven’t been watching football as long as some of us? You may have the challenge of remembering those Chelsea teams. You’ll also have the pleasure of debating, more than we probably, the best starting XI or how such-and-such tactical change influenced proceedings.
Yes, and weren’t the best sides typically an all-British and Ireland XI in those days when you might have expected at least nine of each team to have been English? Even allowing for players from the Republic of Ireland, I’m sure that helped foster a British outlook on the game. There was considerable interest within England towards the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland international teams. Also in how the Scottish clubs did in Europe. The four-team Home International tournament was played every year, with live TV coverage (highly unusual in those days) from the late 1960s. And - because Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales had won slightly more than their fare share of games over the years – it was presented as a meeting of almost equal nations. Games between England and Scotland were massive even if the whole competition never quite attracted the attention paid to the modern Six Nations rugby. Gosh, it's all so quaint looking back.
And, as we’ve said before, Scotland appearing in World Cup - when England were absent – attracted the kind of interest that is now hard to imagine. In fact yesterday, when leafing through an old book, I noticed a Radio Times front cover featuring Jimmy Hill and Billy Bremner (the Scotland captain). Yes, honestly.
Of course, our attitudes towards Britishness have changed over the years. The 1966 World Cup was played under the Union Jack while, in what I think was a significant change, Euro '96 was centred around the flag of St George. That’s left the likes of me – who lean towards being British whilst being sympathetic towards Wales, Scotland and Ireland – profoundly confused. But, when I look around now, I only see two sets of football supporters bothering with the Union Jack. One is a club side; the other a national team. Who do you think I mean?
Consequently I believe the English have become increasingly indifferent to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish national sides. As, probably, are people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They may have punched above their weights for many years and remained on a pedestal whilst on the wane. But they’re really quite dreadful now with no immediate prospect of improvement. That’s ironic as the political balance changes within the United Kingdom.
So that’s another little change to notice since I was a boy. When I read my Soccer Star it always sounded so impressive when a player was tagged as a “Welsh international” or "the Northern Ireland star.” Now these appear to be two-a-penny and frequently not very good. Or was it always like that? For instance, a grown up of my acquaintance had a pathological hatred of Mal Lucas during his time at Plainmoor.
The old gits remember highlights of Wales and Northern Ireland on Sportsnight with Coleman and probably cheered them on. But what about the younger English now? And is there any sign of optimism from Aberdare?
Ah yes, another little thing we miss: following a player as he moves up the leagues; watching those who come down the other way. That type of thing added to the connectivity between clubs and generally added interest, especially when the player you spotted the other week landed a big move. It still happens of course – Nick Powell moving to Manchester United; the likes of Dan Gosling and Mike Williamson playing for Newcastle – but I started to find it increasingly hard to follow player movements and show much interest. When clubs such as Sunderland were chasing Scunthorpe United's centre-half, I showed interest. It sort of fitted. But now it’s more likely to be a French under-21 international from Sochaux – of whom few have heard save for his agent – who immediately sounds as if he’s another for the pile. He’ll play a few games and then he’ll be off to Guingcamp rather than Grimsby.
But I’m sure he’s better than the lad from Scunthorpe and will bring another dimension to the, er, plate. His signing signals ambition and an awareness that football is an international sport rather than merely parochial. And, if I were younger, I’d be impressing my mates by saying I’ve known all about him since he made his debut for Sochaux at Valenciennes last February. Good grief, he might even have “done a job" for me on Championship Manager.
Don’t get me wrong. I love the internationalisation of our football. Of all the things that have happened to club football in my time, I thought the arrival of Ardiles and Villa at Spurs was amongst the most exciting. In my role as international pundit – I subscribed to World Soccer for donkeys – I was forever pontificating that British football could only improve if we looked outward. Then, once we started to see European and South American players in this country, I was calling for our clubs to sign players from Africa. Oh, yes, I was ten years ahead of my time and think it’s great that fans are now showing more interest in football throughout the world. But I’m struggling to keep up, chaps. Call me an old reactionary but rather than keep tabs on prospects from Portugal – or rising teams from Romania – I’m afraid I can’t manage much more than the Northern Premier League these days.
Overall I guess there are now far more technical and tactical playing matters to think about in the middle of all the analysis. Certainly TV has greatly enhanced people's understanding of what happens on the pitch. That's brilliant but I hope it's not at the expense of people discussing the game's cultural aspects. That's often more than half the fun.
Sept 21, 2012 6:54:50 GMT @wildebeeste said:
When Man City last won the League in 1969 their default team was as follows: Mulhearn: Book Pardoe: Doyle Heslop Oakes: Summerbee Bell Lee Young Coleman.And you know something? Wildebeeste is correct. That was the “default team” when Manchester City won the league in 1967/68. According to my Playfair annual (not always wholly accurate to be truthful), ten of those players played at least thirty-three league games that season. The exception was Francis Lee who only joined from Bolton in the autumn.
It’s entirely in keeping that Wildebeeste can remember that side. It’s not necessarily because he’s prone to that type of thing. It’s just that many of us can trot off old teams like that because - quite simply - the best (and sometimes even ordinary) teams were “settled”. That gives us a warm nostalgic glow even if it frequently meant tactical short-sightedness on behalf of managers and the brutal running into the ground of injured players.
And the Manchester City team which won the cup in 1969? Dowd in place of Mulhearn; Booth for Heslop; the rest is unaltered.
Manchester United’s European Cup winning team in 1968? Pretty much what you’d expect based on the number of starts made by each player that season. The exception was Shay Brennan in place of Francis Burns. Law was injured but both Kidd and Aston had played the majority of league games.
By contrast, in forty-five years time, you may have more difficulty in remembering Chelsea’s FA Cup and European Cup winning teams of 2012. The two starting line-ups differed in three positions and four players, who appeared in a considerable number of league games, did not start either match.
The switch to the squad game is well-documented. It’s progressive and it’s pragmatic. But there’s a little plank of familiarity that those of older generations occasionally miss amidst all the rotation. But what if you haven’t been watching football as long as some of us? You may have the challenge of remembering those Chelsea teams. You’ll also have the pleasure of debating, more than we probably, the best starting XI or how such-and-such tactical change influenced proceedings.
Sept 21, 2012 6:54:50 GMT @wildebeeste said:
The steamrolling Leeds side of the same era: Sprake: Reaney Cooper: Bremner Charlton Hunter: Lorimer Clarke Jones Giles Gray. Sub: Madeley. Every player an international for either England, Wales, Scotland or the Republic of Ireland. Yes, and weren’t the best sides typically an all-British and Ireland XI in those days when you might have expected at least nine of each team to have been English? Even allowing for players from the Republic of Ireland, I’m sure that helped foster a British outlook on the game. There was considerable interest within England towards the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland international teams. Also in how the Scottish clubs did in Europe. The four-team Home International tournament was played every year, with live TV coverage (highly unusual in those days) from the late 1960s. And - because Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales had won slightly more than their fare share of games over the years – it was presented as a meeting of almost equal nations. Games between England and Scotland were massive even if the whole competition never quite attracted the attention paid to the modern Six Nations rugby. Gosh, it's all so quaint looking back.
And, as we’ve said before, Scotland appearing in World Cup - when England were absent – attracted the kind of interest that is now hard to imagine. In fact yesterday, when leafing through an old book, I noticed a Radio Times front cover featuring Jimmy Hill and Billy Bremner (the Scotland captain). Yes, honestly.
Of course, our attitudes towards Britishness have changed over the years. The 1966 World Cup was played under the Union Jack while, in what I think was a significant change, Euro '96 was centred around the flag of St George. That’s left the likes of me – who lean towards being British whilst being sympathetic towards Wales, Scotland and Ireland – profoundly confused. But, when I look around now, I only see two sets of football supporters bothering with the Union Jack. One is a club side; the other a national team. Who do you think I mean?
Consequently I believe the English have become increasingly indifferent to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish national sides. As, probably, are people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They may have punched above their weights for many years and remained on a pedestal whilst on the wane. But they’re really quite dreadful now with no immediate prospect of improvement. That’s ironic as the political balance changes within the United Kingdom.
So that’s another little change to notice since I was a boy. When I read my Soccer Star it always sounded so impressive when a player was tagged as a “Welsh international” or "the Northern Ireland star.” Now these appear to be two-a-penny and frequently not very good. Or was it always like that? For instance, a grown up of my acquaintance had a pathological hatred of Mal Lucas during his time at Plainmoor.
The old gits remember highlights of Wales and Northern Ireland on Sportsnight with Coleman and probably cheered them on. But what about the younger English now? And is there any sign of optimism from Aberdare?
Sept 21, 2012 6:54:50 GMT @wildebeeste said:
Rather than looking to South America for talent Liverpool picked up Kevin Keegan and Ray Clemence from Scunthorpe and Ian Rush from Chester. Gordon Banks started out at Chesterfield, Denis Law at Huddersfield, Archie Gemmill at Preston and Roy McFarland at Tranmere. Ah yes, another little thing we miss: following a player as he moves up the leagues; watching those who come down the other way. That type of thing added to the connectivity between clubs and generally added interest, especially when the player you spotted the other week landed a big move. It still happens of course – Nick Powell moving to Manchester United; the likes of Dan Gosling and Mike Williamson playing for Newcastle – but I started to find it increasingly hard to follow player movements and show much interest. When clubs such as Sunderland were chasing Scunthorpe United's centre-half, I showed interest. It sort of fitted. But now it’s more likely to be a French under-21 international from Sochaux – of whom few have heard save for his agent – who immediately sounds as if he’s another for the pile. He’ll play a few games and then he’ll be off to Guingcamp rather than Grimsby.
But I’m sure he’s better than the lad from Scunthorpe and will bring another dimension to the, er, plate. His signing signals ambition and an awareness that football is an international sport rather than merely parochial. And, if I were younger, I’d be impressing my mates by saying I’ve known all about him since he made his debut for Sochaux at Valenciennes last February. Good grief, he might even have “done a job" for me on Championship Manager.
Don’t get me wrong. I love the internationalisation of our football. Of all the things that have happened to club football in my time, I thought the arrival of Ardiles and Villa at Spurs was amongst the most exciting. In my role as international pundit – I subscribed to World Soccer for donkeys – I was forever pontificating that British football could only improve if we looked outward. Then, once we started to see European and South American players in this country, I was calling for our clubs to sign players from Africa. Oh, yes, I was ten years ahead of my time and think it’s great that fans are now showing more interest in football throughout the world. But I’m struggling to keep up, chaps. Call me an old reactionary but rather than keep tabs on prospects from Portugal – or rising teams from Romania – I’m afraid I can’t manage much more than the Northern Premier League these days.