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Post by loyalgull on Sept 15, 2012 13:00:10 GMT
i bet there are lots of police officers who were involved in this tragedy having sleepless nights now everything starting to appear in the public domain.I also seem to remember many officers getting early pension pay offs and early retirement due to the stress of being at hillsborough that tragic day.23 years later the families are still waiting for true justice for their lost love ones.It also reminded me that 3 months prior to this terrible event many of us gulls fans were in the leppings lane end watching us lose 5-1 to sheffield wednesday,very eerie looking back
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Post by stuartB on Sept 16, 2012 11:36:07 GMT
Lambie did you read my post? I did say “I'm sure everything is correct and that is how it was back then and maybe even still the same today, but to me this seems to be a simple case of the police scewing up and trying to cover that fact up. Yes the way the game was back then and the image so many non football people had in their heads about football fans, it was not hard to make the Liverpool fans look the ones who were at fault”Maybe once again as before, it’s a case of me living in my fairy dairy little world, but I do not want to believe I live in a land where the entire police force is corrupt. I was not trying to just lay the blame on senior officers and exonerate the poor little bobbies as you put it, but any orders if that what they were, to cover up all the true facts, had to come from the top surely? No one as yet really knows the real facts, who ordered what and just where all those orders came from, will we ever know? Or now that all this is out in the open, in the coming months we will find out. The most important thing right now as far as I’m concerned is that any blame that had been put on those Liverpool fans who lost their lives that fateful day, has been lifted. Those who have fought long and hard for the truth to come out have won and what is sad it has taken 23 years for that to happen. What is even more important is that justice is now seen to be done and all those involved no matter what level they are in the police force or other body, get sentenced and given an appropriate punishment. PS, is not the point of debate to put your points over and if you know you are correct in what you say, use your arguments to show the other person they are not correct in what they believe or are choosing to believe? I have resisted commenting on this thread as I don't know enough about it. All I know is what I have heard on television and radio or read on the internet or in newspapers. We all know that one must always be guarded as to what to believe when our source is the media. I can though put your mind at rest Dave and assure you that the whole of the police force is not corrupt. My memories of the video footage over 20 years ago was that it looked like absolute chaos. A clip shown in the recent news bulletins of the scenes outside the ground clearly show a surging crowd and also clearly show fans climbing over the walls to enter the ground. To me it seemed reasonable to assess that the situation outside of the ground was getting out of control and dangerous and that serious injury or death outside of the ground could result. There has been a lot made of blame being put on those who tragically died. I am not sure if that is actually the case. Certainly the finger was pointed at Liverpool fans, but I think that related to those arriving late outside of the ground at the Leppings Lane end. It was a 3pm kick off on a fine sunny day and was an FA Cup semi-final not a Church Parade so the chances that a good proportion of the crowd had not been drinking alcohol is minimal. The video footage outside of the ground does show a chaotic scene (a crowd surge is a very frightening experience and I remember my feet leaving the ground and feeling completely out of control in such an incident outside of Kennington Oval). It is clear that when the gate was opened to ease the surge of people outside of the ground there was no stewarding or policing inside of the ground to direct the crowd, resulting in everybody pushing in to the central two pens when there was plenty of room in the side pens. As an observer I think that lack of stewarding or policing inside the ground was more contributory to the tragic events than the opening of the gate (a decision I would assume was made in good faith to prevent a tragedy happening outside of the ground). The issue of police statements being altered is an interesting one. What I wanted to know was to what extent? Was what was stated in the final statements untruthful? If so that is extremely serious. However although the media reports have been sketchy in respect of details (it is far more attention grabbing to headline that over 100 police statements have been altered rather than to detail exactly how) it would appear that the 'alterations' were not actually 'alterations' but omissions. Examples I have seen are comments relating to poor communication with the control room and a lack of leadership being removed from the initial draft. It is not unusual to have an initial draft of a statement and is perfectly legal as long as the draft is retained and disclosed. It would seem that the drafts were retained as that is how the most recent enquiry would have been able to discover the differences between the original draft and the final statement. The important thing is were the final statements the truth? If not then that is extremely serious and responsibility lies with the individual police officer who signed it. Every police officer should have the honesty and integrity to resist unlawful orders, and clearly an instruction to tell lies in a statement would be unlawful. Omissions though do not make the statement itself untruthful. I am in no doubt that the South Yorkshire Police would clearly have seen the spectre of corporate manslaughter hanging over them and have sought to justify their actions (or probably more realistically lack of action). Completely wrong and it should not have taken over 20 years to get to this stage. Media reporting at the time was sensationalist and I am very guarded as to what I believe about the recent enquiry and the findings. It is so easy to manipulate a story in the reporting to fit the in vogue political agenda. A tragic event with closure for the families of the innocent deceased being impossible for so many years. But if blame is being shared out, let's not forget the politicians who at that time became too involved in football and resulted in those disgusting fences where football fans were all treated as potential hooligans and herded in to those areas like cattle. at last some bloody sense from Stefano.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 16:10:35 GMT
I'd certainly agree with Stuart in endorsing Stefano's contribution to this debate. It is entirely correct to acknowledge the severe operational difficulties that the police faced that day.
But I don 't think those points should be made entirely at the expense of some of the more political comments that had been made earlier. Nor do I think this was necessarily Stefano's intention as indicated by his reference to politicians encouraging the earlier erection of fences.
I don't actually think Hillsborough was just about that April day in 1989. Instead I believe there was a prequel that festered throughout the 1970s and 1980 which involved governments, football clubs, football supporters, the police, the judicial process and the media. It was an amazingly complex situation where it was difficult to know what was right or wrong, what to do about it and who was doing a good job. If you weren't around at that time - or followed events solely through a media prism - it must sound entirely baffling and virtually prehistoric.
But if you were around, it would be interesting to recall how each of us felt on the day. Did you blame the Liverpool supporters that Saturday evening? Or the police? Or the ground authorities? Or were you just overwhelmed by the whole day?
Looking back there was something of a default position amongst fans - law-abiding and otherwise - to instantly blame the police whenever things went awry at a match or outside a ground. Maybe that varied between clubs, different parts of the country and age groups. It was part of "the culture". And if you can't get your head around that just think how, even these days, there's widespread distrust towards stewards. That may be largely unjustified but it's engrained and many folk aren't going to see it otherwise. Now magnify that by ten times or more and you've a sense of how the police were widely perceived in those days.
That perception may be wide of the wide of the mark but, in return, I'll always believe that some police officers had similar misconceptions about just about every football supporter and regarded them as "fair game". I was in my twenties for most of that period and at my most likely age to be stopped by the police. I remember going to the toilet at the Baseball Ground and being quizzed as to my intentions by a police officer. From my perspective walking in an orderly manner towards a urinal at a time of need was an everyday occurrence. From the officer's point of view, my wearing of an Everton scarf - in an area designated for Everton supporters - constituted some form of public order offence.
On another occasion I went on my own, and as a neutral, to see Carlisle play Chelsea. As soon as I left the station I was stopped by the police and asked what I was doing in Carlisle. I told the story as it was: I was going to watch the game at Brunton Park because it was an interesting match. Then, not being in possession of a Carlisle accent, I was told to join the Chelsea supporters to be "escorted" to the ground. When I politely repeated my assertion that I was a neutral I was invited to spend the remainder of the afternoon in a van with a police dog for company. Consequently I joined the Chelsea supporters before, funnily enough, finding another police officer and presenting my Torquay United membership card as an alibi. He let me go.
And that's how it was. There was myth, mistrust, suspicion and misunderstanding. But on the day of Hillsborough I couldn't believe that the "hooliganism" of Liverpool supporters was to blame. By this time Heysel, of course, didn't help their cause. Yet, if anything, Liverpool supporters were still more known for boisterousness rather than violence.
Nor did I go overboard in blaming the police for it never struck me as an aggressive operation against football supporters. From the outset it looked like an incident that could have occurred at any time in the previous ninety years. It was, as they once said, an "accident" just like Bolton and Ibrox. It had nearly happened so many times; now we'd been caught out. If anything my rage - and there was a lot of that - was institutional: the fences; the decision to give Liverpool fans that particular end of the ground.
And this is where it becomes awkward. Of all that Stefano wrote, I was most struck by his description of events as "chaotic". That would be entirely the case and I saw chaos on a number of times in the 1970s and 1980s. And, when people make nostalgic comparisons with the past, I guess it's the "edginess" of big-time football then that most stands out. For good or bad, it's simply not there any longer.
Now that's a curious paradox and here I note Stefano's observations about people arriving late, drunk and without tickets. That, as he says, would be a valid conclusion based on experience. It may also have been true that Liverpool's supporters were the slightly more boisterous and plentiful of the two clubs. That's why I was surprised they got the Leppings Lane end but, look at the map, and you'll see that meets the logistics of people arriving over the Pennines.
Like others, I knew the layout of the Leppings Lane end from previous visits to Hillsborough including our trip in January 1989. Yet, although I was surprised by the allocation of ends, I hadn't doubted Hillsborough's overall suitability as a FA Cup venue. This may surprise those, who weren't around in 1989, but Hillsborough had been placed on a pedestal as a venue following the rebuilding work for the 1966 World Cup. Now I suspect we can look back and say Hillsborough was 95% adequate as a semi-final venue. The 5% exception was fatal.
But to go back to Stefano's scenes of pandemonium. Yes, people would have been arriving drunk, late and without tickets. We don't know in what quantity and how much this differed from the norm. We can conclude this made policing harder rather than easier. For instance, and this is hard to imagine now that most stadiums have been redesigned, football grounds often had walls in those days which could be climbed over. Once you were in, there were no further ticket checks. This happening would have inevitably diverted police attention.
But, for me, the moot point is whether this type of supporter behaviour turned an ordinarily controllable situation to one that was completely out of control. Or was the scene already beyond redemption irrespective of drunkenness or illegal entry? That seems crucial to apportioning any blame beyond the level of a tragically "ordinary" accident.
Drink and lively behaviour certainly exacerbates situations like this but one of my theories is that any group, faced with choosing between four penned areas without much direction or information, is prone to making for the middle two. Think of your own behaviour in such situations; think of a group of well-behaved churchgoers arriving late for an event because of, say, an accident. It's not impossible to imagine something similar going wrong.
And, from the time things went wrong, it was difficult for the police - or anybody - to retrieve the situation. I guess it was far harder to make the right decisions than the wrong ones. Mistakes were made and that's not my grouse. It's the sequel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 17:06:28 GMT
Unfortunately, the South Yorkshire police had "form" following their actions at Orgreave and elsewhere 4 years previously. Not so other forces such as those in West Yorkshire, who, certainly from what we watched on the TV, reacted with great courage and professionalism at Valley Parade during that dreadful afternoon in 1985 when the main stand caught fire. On that occasion it was clearly Bradford City FC who were to blame for not observing basic safety measures, including failing to sweep the discarded paper out of the stand and locking fans inside once the match had begun. If ever there seemed like an open and shut case of corporate manslaughter this was it and yet City got a very nice new stadium out of it while other clubs, notably Halifax Town just down the road as well as Northampton and Lincoln, had their stadiums more or less condemned when a new safety regime was imposed.
Bradford City fans burned while the club got off scot free, and I must say that Sheffield Wednesday seem to have managed to avoid their share of blame for the deaths at Hillsborough as well, but I believe it's the police who deserve the most opprobrium for the following reason:
If the South Yorkshire force had just been incompetent then they could be forgiven if not excused, but the mass conspiracy and cover-up is another matter entirely. It seems beyond doubt that they were, to a large degree and from the top, a rogue police force whose unaccountability during the miners' strike made them think they could simply make up the rules as they went along regardless of the what the laws of the land might require.
A corrupt private company is a thing to be despised, but a corrupt police force is a society's ultimate nightmare because the police are, after all, supposed to be our protectors. That's why we, via our taxes, pay for their services, which is as it should be. If we can't rely on them to observe the law and to help prevent corruption instead of indulging in it themselves then who do we turn to?
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 16, 2012 20:31:58 GMT
...I'll always believe that some police officers had similar misconceptions about just about every football supporter and regarded them as "fair game". I was in my twenties for most of that period and at my most likely age to be stopped by the police. I remember going to the toilet at the Baseball Ground and being quizzed as to my intentions by a police officer. From my perspective walking in an orderly manner towards a urinal at a time of need was an everyday occurrence. From the officer's point of view, my wearing of an Everton scarf - in an area designated for Everton supporters - constituted some form of public order offence. I would urge anybody interested in this subject to go and read the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report itself. It's a long document, but there is a shorter summary. This is clearly set out and does not read like a legal text. The report confirms that South Yorkshire Police handled the semi-final as a public order operation, rather than a crowd safety one. This is significant because it explains the approach of the police that day: "Disclosed documents show that police officers, particularly senior officers, interpreted crowd unrest in the Leppings Lane terrace central pens as a sign of potential disorder, and consequently were slow to realise that spectators were being crushed, injured and killed." (paragraph 41) I too was at Hillsborough in January 1989, but I was 8 years old. When I hear about football fans being "herded" into "pens", I think not of people, but of animals. I find it impossible to read the above passage without concluding that South Yorkshire police officers thought they were monitoring savages rather than observing fellow human beings. For those who still appear to accept South Yorkshire Police's libels against Liverpool fans that day or seek to excuse the conduct of officers as the result of 'panic' in the face of an unprecedented unfolding disaster, the report has this to say: "Immediately following identification, the intrusive questioning of bereaved relatives about the social and drinking habits of their loved ones was perceived as insensitive and irrelevant, and added to their distress"(58) "There was no evidence to support the proposition that alcohol played any part in the genesis of the disaster and it is regrettable that those in positions of responsibility created and promoted a portrayal of drunkenness as contributing to the occurrence of the disaster and the ensuing loss of life without substantiating evidence."(72, emphasis added) "the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry" (153)
Moving to events after the disaster, the report is scathing. It largely excuses the role of junior officers, who it seems were pressured by their superiors and manipulated by SYP's legal team. It notes however that "Some 116 of the 164 statements identified for substantive amendment were amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to SYP." (132) The role of the authorities and their client media in publishing propaganda (lies and libels) in support of the police is dealt with in detail. The report says that "several police officers", the Secretary of the South Yorkshire Police Federation (the organisation representing rank-and-file officers) and a Conservative MP were the sources of stories alleging that "that Liverpool fans had assaulted and urinated on police officers resuscitating the dying, stolen from the dead and verbally sexually abused an unconscious young woman" (142) I'm not going to go into detail about what any of that "means" with regard to points raised previously in this thread. For me they are self-evident.
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Post by stuartB on Sept 16, 2012 20:53:42 GMT
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 16, 2012 21:05:37 GMT
You're an ignoramus for responding like that.
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Post by stuartB on Sept 16, 2012 21:14:53 GMT
You're an ignoramus for responding like that. why? it offers another valid view of Liverpool fans. The fans that were killed were totally innocent but to lump blame on the police and government alone is just wrong. (not accusing you but the general inference of the the thread)
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Post by stefano on Sept 16, 2012 22:43:59 GMT
As usual a well considered, interesting, and balanced post by Barton Downs. There is nothing there that I would vehemently disagree with and most of it I agree with 100%. The mid to late 1980's were a horrible time to be a football fan and a time when I nearly fell out of love with the game entirely, my spectator preference being at Barnstaple Rugby Club. Attendances were declining rapidly, the television interest of big European games was no more as all English clubs were banned from Europe for many years (and we wonder why English kids fell well behind the rest of the World in football skills development), and even my local South Devon based club wanted me to carry an ID card (something we of all political persuasions have resisted in our country). Football was policed as a 'public order' problem probably because there was a big public disorder element to it with many involved in that disorder attending games but having little interest in the football. Even today respectable book outlets like W H Smith and Waterstones still openly display and promote the many books like 'The Firm' written by those who instigated and gloried in football related violence. Whilst hopefully the views in such books can be regarded as history it is a bit disappointing that major book outlets regard them as literary essentials to football fans and display them in the sports section.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Sept 16, 2012 22:50:32 GMT
Excellent article here by David Conn of the Guardian: www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-police-coverup-revealedA quote from it, itself quoting the report: 'The report, substantially authored by professor Phil Scraton of Queen's University, Belfast, and unanimously agreed by the panel of eight experts, found there was "no evidence … to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans".'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 23:09:20 GMT
Even today respectable book outlets like W H Smith and Waterstones still openly display and promote the many books like 'The Firm' written by those who instigated and gloried in football related violence. Whilst hopefully the views in such books can be regarded as history it is a bit disappointing that major book outlets regard them as literary essentials to football fans and display them in the sports section. Thanks for your comments, Stefano, and it's an interesting point you raise about the plethora of football-related violence books on the market. After a lull they suddenly started to mushroom and I'm astonished just how many of them are now available. And you frequently find local variations so that, here in Sheffield, there seems to be a cottage publishing industry based around the Wednesday-United rivalry. I trust none are in Alpine Joe's library. Heaven forbid. When they first appeared I was concerned they may appeal to younger people and encourage them down a similar path. I'm still not sure who reads the bloody things - and in what quantities they sell - but I once overheard a forty-five-year-old bloke in Waterstones (in Cardiff of all places) ask for the publication date of the second volume of the A-Z of Hooligan Firms or some such title. All I could deduce was that he hadn't appeared in the first volume - A-L - and was eagerly anticipating N, P or S. Ah yes, the Soul Crew, that would be it. So, good grief, are they being collected for nostalgic purposes in the manner of South Brent in Old Postcards?
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Post by Rags on Sept 17, 2012 7:06:44 GMT
Moving to events after the disaster, the report is scathing. It largely excuses the role of junior officers, who it seems were pressured by their superiors and manipulated by SYP's legal team. It notes however that "Some 116 of the 164 statements identified for substantive amendment were amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to SYP." (132) It's now been picked up by the wider media, but I read in Saturday's Independant that Alun Jones QC, the Barrister for the unsuccessful private prosecution for manslaughter against two senior Police officers, handed a document analysing the amendments to the DPP in 1998 but the CPS decided not to take any action. The article also states that Jack Straw (for it is he!), then Home Secretary, lodged all the amended documents to the House of Commons library in 1998, yet only this week he was out in the media eye trying to shift attention to Thatcher's control of the police force in the 1980's as a driving force behind the tragedy rather than admitting that he personally had the opportunity to thoroughly investigate the events, and chose not to do so. Mr Jones says that the Hillsborough Family Support Group launched the private prosecution in light of inaction by the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) to prosecute anyone over the tragedy. The then Home Secretary Jack Straw lodged all the original and amended statements to the House of Commons library in 1998.
"We furnished the DPP, and Attorney General, with an analysis demonstrating the gravity of the conspiracy," Mr Jones writes. He adds: "It is the DPP, particularly, who needs to explain why his office did absolutely nothing." Mr Jones said the analysis was prepared to head off any attempt by the authorities to halt the manslaughter prosecution of David Duckenfield and his deputy Bernard Murray. The private prosecution failed in 2000. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-told-of-hillsborough-coverup-14-years-ago-8140104.htmlJones also comments on how the refusal of the DPP to bring any charges based on the evidence of the amended statements had a major impact on the private prosecution being brought by the families: In 1998, Lord Justice-Stuart-Smith, reporting his Home Office "Scrutiny" of the case, referred to some of these alterations, but seriously underestimated their significance. Then the Home Secretary, Jack Straw, made public all the statements, original and changed. At that point the Hillsborough Family Support Group commenced a private prosecution for manslaughter.
Funded lavishly by the South Yorkshire Police Authority, to an extent impossible under legal aid, the two prosecuted officers sought to demolish the prosecution by arguing that charges should only be brought by the Director of Public Prosecutions, who had declined to do so eight years earlier.
To rebut this, we furnished the DPP, and Attorney General, with a line-by-line analysis, demonstrating the gravity of the conspiracy, but also proving that critical evidence of non-police witnesses had been withheld from the DPP and coroner in 1990. We showed how the tampering exercise was organised. It was clear that crimes of perverting the course of justice had been committed, but not by whom, and it was beyond the power of the families to investigate. The DPP did not step in to stop the private prosecution, and the police, attempting to outspend the families, applied for judicial review. Again, the families' documents' analysis went before a two-judge High Court which refused to stop the case, but approved the police authority funding of the defence. The trial proceeded, though the families were not allowed to adduce evidence of a previous crush at the ground, and other important evidence was unknown to us. www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-police-were-able-to-use-lies-smears-and-the-legal-system-to-protect-themselves-8140114.html
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 17, 2012 18:49:55 GMT
The article also states that Jack Straw (for it is he!), then Home Secretary, lodged all the amended documents to the House of Commons library in 1998, yet only this week he was out in the media eye trying to shift attention to Thatcher's control of the police force in the 1980's as a driving force behind the tragedy rather than admitting that he personally had the opportunity to thoroughly investigate the events, and chose not to do so. Hmmmm, why does that come as no surprise whatsoever?
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Post by lambethgull on Sept 17, 2012 18:56:34 GMT
You're an ignoramus for responding like that. why? it offers another valid view of Liverpool fans. The fans that were killed were totally innocent but to lump blame on the police and government alone is just wrong. (not accusing you but the general inference of the the thread) Stuart, The Heysel Disaster was also a tragedy, and violent behaviour from Liverpool fans was a factor in those events (though there were also other factors, not least the state-of-repair of the stadium itself). No-one has suggested otherwise, or that the police in Sheffield should not have been mindful of the potential for disorder that day. That doesn't mean however that the authorities in this country had a free hand to treat thousands of people, including women and children, like sub-humans. It doesn't mean that the police and authorities were allowed to lie, and it doesn't mean that the disgraceful cover-up outlined in the report didn't happen. I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for thinking that it does.
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 17, 2012 18:58:35 GMT
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