Rob
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Post by Rob on May 16, 2018 10:27:59 GMT
Good to read that you are supportive of TUST now, AJ. I shouldn’t think any imaginary militants will alter your position. What with them not existing. AJ - The Trust’s darling.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on May 16, 2018 10:30:48 GMT
Not wanting to sound cynical (but I might be a tadge) but all this optimism is based on CO not pulling out of the first meeting next month, due to 'unforeseen work commitments' or other such (snow)flakey excuses. He has made a firm commitment. I’m sure he’ll stick by his word. Alpine Towers will be up in arms if he doesn’t.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 12:15:45 GMT
Floridagull The occasional dose of healthy cynicism does no harm at all. As long as we don't overdo the negativity, as I'd hate to see that rubbing off on loyalgull . The meetings are to be welcomed, and an early indication that CO may already have ideas on how he can put TUST to work on furthering the aims that we expect to see them cooperating with. The devil makes work for idle hands, and if CO can allot some little tasks to them on a monthly basis, it could well keep them out of mischief and prevent a hankering for the previous old trouble making days. As I set out above, TUST are now painted into a corner that would be almost impossible for them to extricate themselves from. I don't think that CO would deliberately take advantage of this, but should the westbound M5 be extra busy over the Summer, we can surely expect the TUST board to take the initiative and fight through the traffic to get themselves up to Somerset instead. Bearing in mind CO's role as chief strategist, I'm sure we can all appreciate that the overall strategy is unlikely to be altering month to month. However if CO finds time to sit in on the monthly communication meetings so much the better, although TUST would be mad to hasten the likelihood of seeing themselves cast out in the darkness again by responding irresponsibly to diary clashes etc. I'm sure common sense, and a recognition of who holds all the cards will prevail
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Rob
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Post by Rob on May 16, 2018 12:54:07 GMT
AJ may already be wavering from his staunch pro-Trust stance of earlier this morning. It’s hard to tell, but this could go either way by this evening.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 16:02:33 GMT
AJ may already be wavering from his staunch pro-Trust stance of earlier this morning. It’s hard to tell, but this could go either way by this evening. For reasons best know to yourself Rob, you're in a position to declare that the agreement regarding monthly meetings is a 'firm' commitment. And that my pro-TUST stance was 'staunch'. Being a critical friend of TUST will not guarantee unwavering support for it's each and every action. My pro TUST opinions of late are based solely on the merits of their recent sensible decisions. Should they change tack and decide to resemble raving militants by this evening, then there'll be no support from me, let alone staunch. Carry on guessing
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Rob
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Post by Rob on May 16, 2018 23:37:39 GMT
He has made a firm commitment. I’m sure he’ll stick by his word. Alpine Towers will be up in arms if he doesn’t. He has? TUST says he has, but is there anything that actually commits CO to meeting TUST every month? Now if there was a set of minutes cosigned by all attendees to confirm that they were a 'true and accurate record of the proceedings' I might have a bit more faith. Still let's not jump the gun. Mine was only a suggestion that it may not happen. I no more know it won't happen, than anyone else knows it will... The TUST press release confirmed it was checked over by all attendees for accuracy before being put out there for public consumption. A firm commitment. As highlighted by the staunch pro-TUST AJ.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on May 16, 2018 23:52:16 GMT
Very interesting to see Alpine Joe re-positioning himself.
All this talk of TUST changing its stance is rubbish.
The objective of TUST has always been to ensure the long term sustainability of Torquay United Football club and to ensure the ownership motives and long term plans are in the best interests of the football club.
Circumstances change. Owners change. TUST does not.
TUST backed private ownership under the 2007 consortium who came up with £900k of share capital up front.
Michael Goulbourne took over as Chairman in November 2014. He quite correctly realised that the days of Thea Bristow throwing money at the club were numbered. He worked tirelessly to get TUST onto a position where it could rally supporters behind community ownership if there was to be no benevolent benefactor on the horizon.
TUST stood back when Kelvin Thomas said he had a buyer who matched his preferred criteria of a Torquay supporter with £1 million to spare. Unfortunately, the man he found changed his mind when his other club won a play-off to get into Conference South.
TUST stood back when Dean Edwards and Steve Breed said they had a consortium of ten business people, £300k of share capital and a CEO with Football League experience who would work for nothing. Unfortunately, none of this was true.
As the reality of Edwards' consortium sank in, it was obvious that they were heading one of two ways - bankruptcy or offloading the club to a property developer.
My strong belief is that the strategy then pursued of making an alternative available to Dave Phillips and Mervyn Balson was correct.
The biggest frustration I have ever experienced relating to TUFC was the pig-headed stubborn stupidity of those two as they decided to hide the truth from fans and hold secret meetings with Gordon Oliver so that they could attempt to sell the club on the promise of it coming with a freehold in the offing - thus actively marketing the club to property developers.
But what is done is done. It is far easier to stop a club falling into the hands of property developers than it is to save it once it is in the hands of property developers. At least there is some hope while the council still owns the freehold.
I would imagine it is the lack of progress on the freehold sale that has changed the relationship between TUST and Mr Osborne. It is certainly not due to any change in direction by TUST.
Osborne's Plan A was to continue to brand TUST as a bunch of troublemakers, stitch up the freehold behind closed doors and get to an unassailable position without any consultation whatsoever. Alpine Joe has been head cheerleader in this policy up until now. The failure to build stadia was just branded "fake news" - a load of lies made up by nasty troublemakers.
Unfortunately for Clarke Osborne and his head of propaganda Alpine Joe, plan A has not gone quite as smoothly as hoped. The council has taken concerns about GI's terrible track record seriously and there will be no disposal of the freehold without full consultation and without those concerns being addressed.
We saw early signs of Alpine Joe's propaganda machine changing direction as he started to acknowledge a number of failed builds that he had previously pretended were fake news and came up with tales of unexpected circumstances and the bizarre defence that nobody wants new speedway stadia built anyway.
Now he is shouting that TUST has changed tack in meeting with Mr Osborne. TUST asked for a face to face meeting with Mr Osborne as soon as he took over. The fact that it has taken seventeen months to come about is not through lack of willing on TUST's part.
Plan A - the quick grab for the freehold - did not require fan engagement.
As I have said before, the disastrous season on the pitch culminating in relegation cut off the easiest route to dividing the fan base. A successful team on the pitch would have led those who look no further than results to conclude that all was well. As it is, those people have turned anti-Osborne with a vengeance.
For now, it suits Mr Osborne's needs to be seen to be talking to TUST.
Make no mistake, we are in phony war now. I 'm not sure if Mr Osborne really has clarity as to the end game.
During the phony war, it may well be that Osborne's objectives happen to align temporarily with those of TUST. You can see scope to work together in the short term for the good of the club.
There will come a time when Mr Osborne sees an opportunity to do what he really wants to do - to extract a return on his investment. It is what he is here for - not for the love of Torquay United Football Club.
At that point, TUST's objective will still be to ensure the long term sustainability of Torquay United Football club and to ensure the ownership motives and long term plans are in the best interests of the football club.
That will be the point at which TUST and Mr Osborne will be pulling in opposite directions.
But it will not be because TUST has changed direction.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on May 17, 2018 8:17:04 GMT
Florida - it is up to CO to put forward the business case for turning TUFC into a commercial enterprise which hasn’t been forthcoming. In the meantime we can only work on his previous modus operandi which is not building a stadium!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 8:19:48 GMT
Jon When TUST decides to rewrite it's official history in an attempt to whitewash it's earlier Militant years, they know where to look among their membership to find someone with the ideal skills for the job. For 'not through lacking of will on TUST's part', read 'increasing desperation'. It suits Osborne's needs to talk to TUST ? It was the only way he could get any peace at home on a Saturday morning, such was TUST's fanaticism in pursuing him......and I think Jon's 'phony war' is a humorous reference to that infamous Saturday morning call. Concluding that he couldn't shake them off, even when he was at home, CO agreed to listen to their pitch, and their presentation showcasing a new moderate TUST is good. I've acknowledged that, and the club is taking it at face value to. Now TUST have to walk the walk and not just talk their new brand of moderate talk. We will be looking for proof that their desire for cooperation is genuine, and not moderate soft soap lathered up to hide an old familiar Militant complexion
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Rob
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Post by Rob on May 17, 2018 12:06:23 GMT
There will come a time when Mr Osborne sees an opportunity to do what he really wants to do - to extract a return on his investment. It is what he is here for - not for the love of Torquay United Football Club. I'm sure that is exactly his objective, Jon. In that respect he is no different to many or the other owners of football clubs. In essence he will achieve that return, one of 2 ways; either turn the club into a viable commercial enterprise, which can be sold as such, or obtain the freehold and then dismantle what's left of the club we support. I hope it's the former but I suspect CO doesn't care which, as long as he makes his original prospective ROI. And in doing so he will expose how irrelevant TUST really was in the whole process. Not sure you could conclude something as irrelevant if it continually strives to ensure it is not the second of your ‘inevitable end-game’ scenarios. Jon has already given you the example of the freehold and alerting of Osborne’s record with new Stadia promises. Do you think relevant councillors were not lobbied and simply read message boards to find this stuff out when the attempted freehold grab was going on behind closed doors? Jon is correct in his assertion that TUST hasn’t changed it’s focus one bit and has had to react to different events. Its a grouping of fans joined by their love of TUFC, after all. Owners and fickle reactionaries on forums change. AJ re-posting pictures of that Swindon ceremonial ground-break with Osborne two years ago is surely due another airing soon?
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simonb
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Post by simonb on May 17, 2018 12:15:38 GMT
CO is not doing what he’s doing because of a love for Torquay but for the love of 💷
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 13:24:43 GMT
Rob I'm sure Florida acknowledges the underlying good intentions, but isn't the whole point of the recent conversion to new Moderate TUST to avoid a future of irrelevancy and continual striving that was taking them nowhere but backwards ? I think TUST really may have learned the lessons relating to much of the stuff that Jon has mentioned. If the penny has finally dropped, then let's help them along, welcome them aboard as CO is doing, and wish them well on their new cooperative course. Jon provides enough evidence to make clear why Moderate TUST could well be a good thing. Referring to Michael Gouldbourne, he says: 'He worked tirelessly to get TUST onto a position where it could rally supporters behind community ownership'. You'll immediately pick up on the similarity between 'working tirelessly' and 'continually striving', Rob. But the proof is in the relevancy pudding. When you go out to the people and sadly find out what a shocking lack of interest there is for Community Ownership. In the harsh light of day, continually striving won't make a bad and unsuitable idea any better, as it's continued unpopularity in South Devon proves. And it's no different from times that TUST has had to 'stand back' as Jon terms it. On occasions we can pay tribute to that continual striving as TUST made every attempt to step forward. And many TUST members, or members of the Breed, or Philips regimes will be able to recount the sterling attempts that TUST made to step forward and be part of the scheme going forward. But it was always the same story. No real support resulting in no real money, resulting eventually in no other option than having to 'stand back' yet again and an acceptance that you're not being taken seriously. And isn't that the central point behind the creation of 'Moderate TUST' ?. The long overdue, though painful acceptance of not having or neither likely to have enough strength to ever step forward under your own steam ? Yes, a terrible bullet to have to bite, but the new TUST leadership have looked this perennial problem squarely in the eye and seemingly concluded 'We've seen we're incapable of stepping forward, therefore we are faced with no other option that to change ourselves sufficiently to the extent that the club will invite and help us to step forward'. For the Militants, of course there is shame in having to take CO's arm as he helps you to finally take that step you've dreamed of. Of course it would have been nicer to have been able to take a confident stride forward, principles still intact, the way you had hoped it would happen. But hard reality has bitten, huge compromises made, and the rebranding just had to be done. It's a cruel world at times. But swallow your disappointment, and realise this really can be in the best interests of TUST.
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simonb
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Post by simonb on May 17, 2018 14:04:13 GMT
Propaganda machine in overtime?
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on May 17, 2018 14:28:13 GMT
shocking lack of interest there is for Community Ownership. I'm not sure what was said (or really understand) and if anyone could pen a paragraph on the matter it would be much appreciated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2018 15:49:57 GMT
simonb Very much so Simon . But having had recent conformation that my continual striving is not irrelevant, I am newly energised The crumbling of old TUST, it's remnants swept into the dustbin of history, was like the Berlin Wall falling for some of us. Trample through those barely flickering militant ashes, and a new moderate cooperative TUST has not only arrived on the scene, but been quickly ushered to the safety of CO's inner sanctum. It's not only Will Grigg who's on fire but also the TUST Militants, some of whom are already muttering that they never signed up for kinder and gentler, haha. chelstongull Just another case of me harking back to a particular old favourite of mine....the 'Pre- share issue' debacle. Paraphrasing, but the official release at the time said something like it this is the chance for the people of the area to demonstrate their support for Community Ownership. I believe that when everything was in and tallied up, that 'support' amounted to two £10 notes, a 50 pence piece, two buttons and a gravy bone* *I stand to be corrected on the exact details....or did transparent TUST never make them public ?
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