Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2011 21:32:22 GMT
Our talk this week about Plainmoor's capacity demands an historical perspective (even if I'm not the best person to provide the facts and figures). But, first, a response to points made on another thread:
I was interested in what you said about little regard to spectator comfort or safety. Standing on a football terrace is not that much different today is it? Yes I would agree they are not allowed to be so packed now and there has to be more areas to allow for a quick escape if there was a need, but was it really more dangerous to watch football back then...Below is a list of most of the football stadium tragedies and its interesting to note that most happened in more recent times than the more early years of football and bigger crowds.
Dave’s list of football disasters suggests it’s still a relatively perilous business watching football in parts of Africa. Safety standards at football are not the same all over the world. Cultural and political attitudes may play a part but I’m guessing there’s also a correlation between a country’s affluence and its’ attitude towards safety.
As for Britain, I think there is a massive difference between standing on the terrace now compared to forty, fifty, sixty years ago (even if this might not be quite as noticeable at Plainmoor). It’s not just the density of bodies to the square metre (or how ever these things are measured) but also the number of safety barriers and the better provision of exit routes. Furthermore, because it’s now only the smaller clubs which have standing, you simply don’t get those banks of 25,000 spectators. Indeed, sometime last season, I remember us having the conversation that grounds such as Saltergate (now gone) and Exeter City were amongst the contenders for the biggest standing areas in Britain. And, unless things go horribly wrong, grounds should now be able to stop entry once a certain number of admissions has been reached. Once-upon-a-time this may only have happened when people started fainting and spilling on to the pitch.
Historically, several waves of concern and outrage prodded football in Britain to clean up its act: Bolton in the 1940s; Ibrox in 1971; Bradford and Hillsborough in the 1980s. We may have not cared – at the time - for some of the change but, in retrospect, it’s largely been for the best. The crying shame, of course, is that the issue of safety has been used to excuse massive price rises. The post-Hillsborough Taylor Report asked for change and sensible ticket prices. Sadly, the second part got washed away in football’s flood of greed.
My original point was that football was a low-cost, low maintenance industry in the 1940s. This kept the cost of admission down but, in turn, spectators were given facilities in keeping with the 6d or 9d it cost at the turnstile. And, with the obvious exception of Bolton and a few other incidents, British football largely winged it more by luck than anything else. The fans got a buzz out of football and knew no different. My dad, for instance, used to talk about 80,000 crowds at Stamford Bridge, hardly seeing anything of the game and being half-crushed for his troubles. That’s how it was and, such was his tolerance level, this didn’t stop him from going.
Later, after Bolton, the process of reducing ground capacities started on a gradual basis. This was partly due to the building of more seated areas; also because standing densities were cut. But, by today’s standards, it was still pretty crowded with every chance of not getting a good view and being pushed around. I grew up towards the end of this era and was soon taken to grounds other than Plainmoor. I too developed a suitable tolerance level towards the experience and regarded packed crowds, like my father before me, as being part of the game. In previous postings I’ve bored you with stories of nights on the Kop, battling to gain entry at Molineux and 50,000 crowds at places such as Bolton. I also remember the 20,000 attendance for the League Cup tie against Spurs in 1971 and how we got to Plainmoor by 4pm to get a view from the railings on the popular side.
And, because I had a few hairy moments yet remained unscathed, I remember being very resistant to the suggestion of all-seater stadiums from 1989 onwards. I’m glad it still hasn’t happened at our level and maintain you could still have standing at the big grounds. Yet, if that were to happen, I’m sure density ratios would be low by the standards of the 1970s and 1980s. But I’m also a little unsure of the attitude of a newer generation of Premier League supporters towards standing areas. Have tastes changed too much? Would sufficient people still wish to stand? Either way, I don’t see it happening.
The history of the ground capacity at Plainmoor demands extra research. I wonder when we first had a “capacity” as such? Was it an “estimate” that never got approached – or was there an agreed limit from that first league match in 1927 onwards? Perhaps we packed them in and hoped for the best? I’ve love to know more about the circumstances of that 21,908 crowd against Huddersfield in 1955. Was it all-ticket? If so, was it a sell out? Or was it pay-on-the-gate with an attendance that was a surprise to all?
I suppose we really need a progressive (and, subsequently, regressive) capacity table along the lines of that which has been unearthed for our record attendances. But does the information exist? Looking at my collection of football yearbooks from the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s they don’t seem to go big on capacities (Budleigh?). Consequently my starting point is the very first edition of the Rothmans Football Yearbook 1970/71: Plainmoor 25,000 (really?) with 1,500 seats; Exeter City 19,788; Plymouth Argyle 40,000; Aldershot 20,000; Bury 35,000; Chesterfield 28,500; Crewe 20,000;Gillingham 25,000; Lincoln 25,000; Port Vale 50,000....
That Spurs game in 1971 – watched by 20,100 according to the books – surely represents the end of an era. Thereafter, in the wake of Ibrox, capacities started to fall again across the country. I thought our capacity begun to fall in the 1970s – perhaps because of stricter standards and a steady decline in the club’s fortunes - although my 1984/85 Rothmans still records the capacity as 22,000 (are we to believe this?). Then, all of a sudden, it’s 6,900 in 1985/86 edition and 4,999 in 1986/87. That would be due to Dave Webb thinking that part of the Babbacombe End could be better-used for car boot sales as well as the stringent licensing regime which reflected the political climate of the mid 1980s. Then, when Mike Bateson rebuilt in the 1990s, the capacity was consolidated at around 5-6,000 as the ground was remodelled on a modest basis.
Indeed, this week I was shocked as to how the capacity has now shrunk to 5,500. I didn’t pick that up earlier in the season because, current cup circumstances aside, I didn’t see where the next crowd was coming from this side of the new stand. Do the maths and that’s only around 25% of the capacity of yesteryear. That sounds unfortunate – even careless – but, given the context of reduced capacities elsewhere, could we contend that a reduction to no more than 8-9,000 would have been par for the course?
Dave’s list of football disasters suggests it’s still a relatively perilous business watching football in parts of Africa. Safety standards at football are not the same all over the world. Cultural and political attitudes may play a part but I’m guessing there’s also a correlation between a country’s affluence and its’ attitude towards safety.
As for Britain, I think there is a massive difference between standing on the terrace now compared to forty, fifty, sixty years ago (even if this might not be quite as noticeable at Plainmoor). It’s not just the density of bodies to the square metre (or how ever these things are measured) but also the number of safety barriers and the better provision of exit routes. Furthermore, because it’s now only the smaller clubs which have standing, you simply don’t get those banks of 25,000 spectators. Indeed, sometime last season, I remember us having the conversation that grounds such as Saltergate (now gone) and Exeter City were amongst the contenders for the biggest standing areas in Britain. And, unless things go horribly wrong, grounds should now be able to stop entry once a certain number of admissions has been reached. Once-upon-a-time this may only have happened when people started fainting and spilling on to the pitch.
Historically, several waves of concern and outrage prodded football in Britain to clean up its act: Bolton in the 1940s; Ibrox in 1971; Bradford and Hillsborough in the 1980s. We may have not cared – at the time - for some of the change but, in retrospect, it’s largely been for the best. The crying shame, of course, is that the issue of safety has been used to excuse massive price rises. The post-Hillsborough Taylor Report asked for change and sensible ticket prices. Sadly, the second part got washed away in football’s flood of greed.
My original point was that football was a low-cost, low maintenance industry in the 1940s. This kept the cost of admission down but, in turn, spectators were given facilities in keeping with the 6d or 9d it cost at the turnstile. And, with the obvious exception of Bolton and a few other incidents, British football largely winged it more by luck than anything else. The fans got a buzz out of football and knew no different. My dad, for instance, used to talk about 80,000 crowds at Stamford Bridge, hardly seeing anything of the game and being half-crushed for his troubles. That’s how it was and, such was his tolerance level, this didn’t stop him from going.
Later, after Bolton, the process of reducing ground capacities started on a gradual basis. This was partly due to the building of more seated areas; also because standing densities were cut. But, by today’s standards, it was still pretty crowded with every chance of not getting a good view and being pushed around. I grew up towards the end of this era and was soon taken to grounds other than Plainmoor. I too developed a suitable tolerance level towards the experience and regarded packed crowds, like my father before me, as being part of the game. In previous postings I’ve bored you with stories of nights on the Kop, battling to gain entry at Molineux and 50,000 crowds at places such as Bolton. I also remember the 20,000 attendance for the League Cup tie against Spurs in 1971 and how we got to Plainmoor by 4pm to get a view from the railings on the popular side.
And, because I had a few hairy moments yet remained unscathed, I remember being very resistant to the suggestion of all-seater stadiums from 1989 onwards. I’m glad it still hasn’t happened at our level and maintain you could still have standing at the big grounds. Yet, if that were to happen, I’m sure density ratios would be low by the standards of the 1970s and 1980s. But I’m also a little unsure of the attitude of a newer generation of Premier League supporters towards standing areas. Have tastes changed too much? Would sufficient people still wish to stand? Either way, I don’t see it happening.
The history of the ground capacity at Plainmoor demands extra research. I wonder when we first had a “capacity” as such? Was it an “estimate” that never got approached – or was there an agreed limit from that first league match in 1927 onwards? Perhaps we packed them in and hoped for the best? I’ve love to know more about the circumstances of that 21,908 crowd against Huddersfield in 1955. Was it all-ticket? If so, was it a sell out? Or was it pay-on-the-gate with an attendance that was a surprise to all?
I suppose we really need a progressive (and, subsequently, regressive) capacity table along the lines of that which has been unearthed for our record attendances. But does the information exist? Looking at my collection of football yearbooks from the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s they don’t seem to go big on capacities (Budleigh?). Consequently my starting point is the very first edition of the Rothmans Football Yearbook 1970/71: Plainmoor 25,000 (really?) with 1,500 seats; Exeter City 19,788; Plymouth Argyle 40,000; Aldershot 20,000; Bury 35,000; Chesterfield 28,500; Crewe 20,000;Gillingham 25,000; Lincoln 25,000; Port Vale 50,000....
That Spurs game in 1971 – watched by 20,100 according to the books – surely represents the end of an era. Thereafter, in the wake of Ibrox, capacities started to fall again across the country. I thought our capacity begun to fall in the 1970s – perhaps because of stricter standards and a steady decline in the club’s fortunes - although my 1984/85 Rothmans still records the capacity as 22,000 (are we to believe this?). Then, all of a sudden, it’s 6,900 in 1985/86 edition and 4,999 in 1986/87. That would be due to Dave Webb thinking that part of the Babbacombe End could be better-used for car boot sales as well as the stringent licensing regime which reflected the political climate of the mid 1980s. Then, when Mike Bateson rebuilt in the 1990s, the capacity was consolidated at around 5-6,000 as the ground was remodelled on a modest basis.
Indeed, this week I was shocked as to how the capacity has now shrunk to 5,500. I didn’t pick that up earlier in the season because, current cup circumstances aside, I didn’t see where the next crowd was coming from this side of the new stand. Do the maths and that’s only around 25% of the capacity of yesteryear. That sounds unfortunate – even careless – but, given the context of reduced capacities elsewhere, could we contend that a reduction to no more than 8-9,000 would have been par for the course?