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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2011 0:03:57 GMT
But if you go by the rules of the game, the ref did nothing wrong restarting the game the way he did. If you look back to some of Timbo’s old programmes you occasionally see discussion of the Laws of the Game. Furthermore, those very same Laws were often published in all manner of football yearbooks and other publications. Generally, that’s no longer the case and, should you want to discover the Laws, you need to go to the official FIFA pages: www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2010_11_e.pdf Or, as Dave has done, you could use an alternative source such as Wikipedia. I’d also recommend the Corsham Referee at www.corshamref.org.uk/I would never pose as an expert on the Laws of the Game (far from it to be honest). But I'm sure we think we know the Laws rather more than we actually do so. We learnt them as kids so, naturally, we bloody know them! Ah, but in my experience: 1. The Laws – as written – are not always what we suspect. 2. There are fewer clauses in the Laws than we commonly believe. Part of the problem is that we follow the interpretation of the Laws as relayed to us by pundits, footballers, managers and commentators. This interpretation may not be exact as they or we think. No wonder we're confused. A further blur is that there are at least three levels of law, rule and interpretation: - the 17 Laws of the Game - the (additional) Interpretation of the Laws of the Game and Guidelines for Referees (as provided by FIFA) - the Rules of the Competition (be it the Premier League, Football League, FA Cup, World Cup or whatever) Take, for example, the business about referees adding thirty seconds for each substitution. Is this a Law? A Guideline? Or merely a Competition Rule? This comes from Law 7 ”The Duration of the Match”: Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:
• substitutions • assessment of injury to players • removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment • wasting time • any other cause
The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.Then there is the issue of the sending off of the last man. This should be covered by Law 12 “Fouls and Misconduct”: A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:
• serious foul play • violent conduct • spitting at an opponent or any other person • denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area) • denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick • using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures • receiving a second caution in the same matchIt looks like the fifth of these concerns us here: denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity. FIFA’s Interpretation and Guidelines offers us more but not all that we seek: There are two sending-off offences that deal with denying an opponent an obvious opportunity to score a goal. It is not necessary for the offence to occur inside the penalty area.
If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goalscoring opportunity and a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent’s handling the ball or fouling an opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.
Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding whether to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity:
• the distance between the offence and the goal • the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball • the direction of the play • the location and number of defenders • the offence which denies an opponent an obvious goalscoring opportunity may be an offence that incurs a direct free kick or an indirect free kickAs for dropped balls, this is all that is said in Law 8 “The Start and Restart of Play”: If, while the ball is still in play, the referee is required to stop play temporarily for any reason not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws of the Game, the match is restarted with a dropped ball.
Procedure: the referee drops the ball at the place where it was located when play was stopped, unless play was stopped inside the goal area, in which case the referee drops the ball on the goal area line parallel to the goal line at the point nearest to where the ball was located when play was stopped.
Play restarts when the ball touches the ground.
Infringements and sanctions. The ball is dropped again:
• if it is touched by a player before it makes contact with the ground • if the ball leaves the fi eld of play after it makes contact with the ground, without a player touching itThe Interpretations and Guidelines only add: Any player may challenge for the ball (including the goalkeeper). There is no minimum or maximum number of players required to contest a dropped ball. The referee cannot decide who may or may not contest a dropped ball.Dave’s extra paragraph “use in the modern game” is useful but no more than additional information from Wiki. I would say it’s a trend of the last twenty years along with the process of advantage not being taken at the throw-in when the ball has been kicked out following an injury. Whether a league or cup competition (or a national association) advises – or is able to advise - referees to act in a certain manner (over and above the Laws of the Game) may be the moot point. Is Sunday Ref still around?
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Jan 23, 2011 9:47:10 GMT
What I don't understand is why for two similar events i.e. players going off injured, ball kicked out of play there were two different outcomes. 1. We kick the ball to their 'keeper (kick it into touch for Cliff's sake). and 2. Drop ball outside our 18 yard box. Can you choose how the match started or is it down to the official? I do hope if a Rooney scores against us again, it's at Old Trafford in round 5.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jan 23, 2011 10:54:08 GMT
What would be very interesting to add to this thread, is a copy of the oldest known rules of the game so we could compare them with today’s rules to see just how many have been added over the years and how they have been changed.
Certainly from my earliest memories of the game, there have been a number of changes and the offside rule must be one of them. There once was a term used for a player who almost stayed in the opposition box “GOAL HANGER” and I’m sure the off side rule was brought in to put an end to such antics.
But as we know the offside rule has been played around with so much, its now got to the point that so many don’t really understand it anymore and in my view its only added unnecessary confusion when it comes to making a decision.
I suppose the real question is why has there been a need or desire over the years to change the rules in the first place. I would imagine when any new game or sport was created, in the first year or so some rules might need amending, or a few others brought in, but would they need to be constantly changing? And if so why?
I don’t play chess myself, but I would guess that game is played today by the same rules it was when it was first invented, yes maybe a few moves and rules had to be tweaked in the first few years it was played to iron out any flaws in the games play.
I suppose football bring a spectator sport has played a big part in a number of rule changes, the back pass law being one of them. In the past a team sitting on a one goal lead with five minutes to go, could pass the ball back and forward between the defence and the goal keeper, with the keeper being able to just pick up the ball and roll it out again. Such tactics’ being used only to prevent the opposition getting the ball to ensure they are not going to go and get an equaliser.
Look how many times the rules for keepers have changed, once he could only hold onto the ball for so many seconds, then he could only bounce the ball a number of times before he had to kick it out and then there was a time he could only take so many steps before he had to kick the ball.
He had to take a goal kick from the side of the goal the ball went out and yes as stated he could pick up the ball when it came into his box no matter how it got there. The main reason for such changes one would think was to speed up the game, to try and prevent periods where there was no action and to reduce all opportunities of time wasting.
I don’t think most fans have any problems with rule changes that are made to try and improve the game and make it more action packed, but If I’m honest I’m not a lover of the offside rule and only because it does reduce the amount of goals scored in games. It does allow teams just to sit very deep with two banks of four to prevent the other team from scoring, while showing no desire to try and score themselves.
The rules on tackling sure have changed over the years and these days challenges that were within the rules once are now outlawed. I’m sure most would agree that some challenges have needed to be outlawed as the last thing any football fan wants to see is players suffering career threatening injuries due to a very dangerous challenge.
But on the other hand some football fans do feel too much of the physical side of the game has been lost due to rule changes and in the end that is something that could make the game of football into some sort of non contact sport that would just be boring to watch.
Some rule changes are just plain daft and you have to ask whey they were changed in the first place. Take a player getting fouled and injured as a result, he receives treatment and then has to leave the field of play leaving his side one man short. It’s as if his team is being punished for him getting injured and it can be costly if the injured player was say a defender and his team needed to defend a corner or free kick.
So what rules do you think have been changed when they should have been left alone? Are there any new rules you would like to see brought in? What is the daftest rule in your opinion?
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Post by aussie on Jan 23, 2011 11:04:40 GMT
Some send yesterdays Ref a copy of this please!
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Jan 23, 2011 11:17:08 GMT
What is the daftest rule in your opinion? 1. 'Shielding' the ball out for a throw in or goal kick. Anywhere else on the pitch it would be obstruction. 2. Making a player who has received treatment leave the pitch giving the advantage to the cad and his team who committed the ghastly foul. 3. Letting the officials take to the pitch without having an on-the-pitch eye inspection. Perhaps a 15 minute 'Do you know the rules ref and if so are you able to evenly interpret them' quiz could be incorporated before the match. 4. Not really a rule but can we stop the flag waving before and during the game. 5. Why can't the match start at the correct time of 1500, this means that we kick off at this time not saunter out of the tunnel at 1458.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2011 11:23:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2011 12:47:23 GMT
What would be very interesting to add to this thread, is a copy of the oldest known rules of the game so we could compare them with today’s rules to see just how many have been added over the years and how they have been changed. Back in the mid 19th century there were various set of rules drawn up by different public schools and universities. Of these the Cambridge revision of 1863 – fourteen rules in total – has a particular historical relevance because these proved the catalyst for the set adopted at the formation of the Football Association in the same year. A little facsimile book was published a few years ago setting out the FA’s 1863 laws of the game (of which there were thirteen) together with other material: The thirteen Football Association Laws of 1863 were: 1. The maximum length of the ground shall be 200 yards, the maximum breadth shall be 100 yards, the length and breadth shall be marked off with flags; and the goal shall be defined by two upright posts, eight yards apart, without any tape or bar across them.
2. A toss for goals shall take place, and the game shall be commenced by a place kick from the centre of the ground by the side losing the toss for goals; the other side shall not approach within 10 yards of the ball until it is kicked off.
3. After a goal is won, the losing side shall be entitled to kick off, and the two sides shall change goals after each goal is won.
4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts or over the space between the goal-posts (at whatever height), not being thrown, knocked on, or carried.
5. When the ball is in touch, the first player who touches it shall throw it from the point on the boundary line where it left the ground in a direction at right angles with the boundary line, and the ball shall not be in play until it has touched the ground.
6. When a player has kicked the ball, any one of the same side who is nearer to the opponent's goal line is out of play, and may not touch the ball himself, nor in any way whatever prevent any other player from doing so, until he is in play; but no player is out of play when the ball is kicked off from behind the goal line.
7. In case the ball goes behind the goal line, if a player on the side to whom the goal belongs first touches the ball, one of his side shall he entitled to a free kick from the goal line at the point opposite the place where the ball shall be touched. If a player of the opposite side first touches the ball, one of his side shall be entitled to a free kick at the goal only from a point 15 yards outside the goal line, opposite the place where the ball is touched, the opposing side standing within their goal line until he has had his kick.
8. If a player makes a fair catch, he shall be entitled to a free kick, providing he claims it by making a mark with his heel at once; and in order to take such kick he may go back as far as he pleases, and no player on the opposite side shall advance beyond his mark until he has kicked.
9. No player shall run with the ball.
10. Neither tripping nor hacking shall be allowed, and no player shall use his hands to hold or push his adversary. 11. A player shall not be allowed to throw the ball or pass it to another with his hands.
12. No player shall be allowed to take the ball from the ground with his hands under any pretence whatever while it is in play.
13. No player shall be allowed to wear projecting nails, iron plates, or gutta-percha on the soles or heels of his boots. Now then, put that gutta-percha away! The above is fascinating but I’m not sure of any direct historical relevance to how we’ve seen the Laws of the Game change in our respective lifetimes. Clearly the game took a while after 1863 to mutate into the game we know today: corners and penalties before the end of the century; goalkeepers allowed to handle outside the box until 1912; a significant change to the offside law in the mid 1920s. Maybe, then, it’s the Stanley Rous 1938 revision to the Laws of the Game which would most interest children of the 1950s and 1960s. These would have been the laws that those of a certain age would have learned as kids.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 23, 2011 13:37:49 GMT
There once was a term used for a player who almost stayed in the opposition box “GOAL HANGER” and I’m sure the off side rule was brought in to put an end to such antics. You have got the chicken and the egg the wrong way round Dave. In early football, nobody could be forward of the ball and passing forward to a team mate just was not an option. You advanced by running with the ball - dribbling or handling depending on the code. The introduction of the offside rule actually freed up the game by making it possible to pass forward with certain limitations. That is what turned the game that became association into a far more entertaining and fast-moving sport than its rugby counterpart - with the dribbling game becoming the passing game. The only major change has been to drop the number of players needed between player and goal from three to two in the 1920s - as we have previously discussed on this forum. Recent tinkering has only been fine-tuning the existing law to make it a little more liberal by changing the status of players "in line" and by attempting to clarify (and spectacularly failing to do so!) what represents interfering with play. A lot of the recent law tinkering clearly comes from the fact that soccer is a massive spectator sport - so how the game looks to the spectator is as important as what suits players. I must admit that I was firmly against the change in the back-pass rule which I saw as unnecessary tinkering with the game's traditions. On considered reflection, I think this rule has made a massive contribution to making the game faster-moving and more entertaining. I am glad that they waited until Cyril had left TUFC before bringing it in though!
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Post by sundayref on Jan 23, 2011 13:49:17 GMT
Firstly in response to Barton Downs I am still around and keep an eye on the forum when time permits. Secondly yesterdays ref Mr Scott most certainly lost control of the game. I think most of the comments here state he had a decent first half which I would agree with but he lost his way in the second half. There was one incident during the second half where he was over near the Pop side. Someone near to me (an ex- referee no less) shouted at him to be consistent whereupon he turned and glared at my friend. He then gave TUFC a free kick for what most of us felt was a fair challenge by Bayo which Bayo took offence to and then had a long 'discussion' with Mr Scott. As to the drop ball I feel he really goofed and knew it!! Sadly its all history now and we move on to face Crawley. Cant wait to hear the Pop side taunt Mr Evans!!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jan 23, 2011 13:54:42 GMT
You have got the chicken and the egg the wrong way round Dave. Nothing new there then Jon I expect its just down to age and a very clouded memory of football back then when I was just a lad. I remember the little room at the school where the leather laced up football balls were kept and being sent in that room to blow up the balls and put dubin on them. I expect our school football matches never really observed the off side rule and the reason some players were labeled as goal hangers.
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