Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 9, 2010 22:06:39 GMT
Copied from Programmes Room to History Room at Dave's request: And, lastly, nothing to do with any of Timbo’s programmes. Flicking through Football Nation by Andrew Ward and John Williams, I did the usual thing of looking up Torquay United in the index. This is what I found. I read it that the test case took place around 1954. Can anybody add anything? Times 28/7/54 Times 15/12/54 Times 18/12/54
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2010 11:50:38 GMT
And, with Jon placing this thread in the history room, I’ll repeat my earlier observation about the involvement of Dingle Foot QC in this case – brother of Michael and another keen Argyle supporter. A Liberal MP for Dundee; a Labour MP for Ipswich and Harold Wilson’s solicitor general in the late 1960s.
But, of course – as Jon pointed out when we discussed this “find” on Saturday – the true heroes of this episode were the four supporters who put themselves through the mill of court cases, appeals and convictions: Frederick Wolff, Leslie Williams, Frederick Down and James Burgoyne. All, it appears, in an effort to test the law with the eventual hope that extra funds could be raised for the club.
I knew nothing of this story and I don’t think any of Timbo’s programmes have hinted at events, although he’s not posted too many from the end of the 1953/54 season when the lottery in question appears to have taken place. Whether the football club or supporters club chose to use the programme to publicise the lottery remains to be seen (or were more clandestine methods employed?) but, from the accounts of the case, around 5,000 tickets were being sold each week.
On another point, the court reporting provides an intriguing portrait of a supporters club with 7,000 members and one that was involved in providing gatemen and stewards; improving the amenities of the playing ground; organising the arrangements for running the football club(?) and transport for supporters; maintaining and repairing the kit. That, as we’ve discussed before, paints a picture of a club largely dependent on voluntary participation with relatively little in the way of a paid infrastructure. I’m not casting this in a particularly wistful light as I would imagine that, in time, the “professionalisation” of many activities was required and perhaps overdue.. But it’s worth asking when did this happen? Some time between the 1950s and the late 1960s would be my guess. Not just at Torquay United but throughout the game. Maybe too it was the case that changes in legislation enabled football clubs to bring fundraising “in house” rather than to rely too heavily on supporters clubs. A small amount of research shows there was some liberalising of rules relating to lotteries in 1956 – perhaps the efforts of our supporters played a part? Certainly, thereafter, we see Torquay United Supporters Club actively promoting its jackpots and Crackerjacks (was there a Crackerjill as well?). Also, during the late 1960s and early 1970s, I remember that Plymouth Argyle (the club itself rather than the supporters club, I think) seemed to be pretty active in selling “bingo” tickets in South Devon. Indeed, much to my chagrin, my mother used to buy Argyle Bingo tickets from a friend’s husband who was involved in the Torbay Wednesday League suggesting that Argyle had offered the league a decent cut.
Then, in the mid 1970s, there was further liberalisation of the lottery regulations which I recall as being as a “good thing for football”. That, I guess, was the final step towards football clubs taking almost complete control of their own fundraising with supporters clubs slipping more and more into the background. I'm sure there are those who know more about this than me.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 10, 2010 12:28:39 GMT
......... the true heroes of this episode were the four supporters who put themselves through the mill of court cases, appeals and convictions: Frederick Wolff, Leslie Williams, Frederick Down and James Burgoyne. I can't pretend to know about ALL of those gentlemen but I can put this to you................ Was Leslie Williams in fact the Cecil Williams who went on to become a director of the club? I'm not sure, but I have an inkling that old time director had a history of club involvement going back to those days. Maurice Wolff was an absolute rock in the structure of the old Supporters Club (so was "Frederick" his christened name?). When I first worked for the club in 1974, he was long dead but his widow, "Mrs Wolff" was a wonderful old sole who still sold lottery tickets for the professional commercial department and still insisted on calling them "Jacks and Jills" ~ the old title of the original old style competition that her late husband had pioneered. She must have been well into her eighties even in those days and regailed me with tales of how she and other volunteers made the player's kit in the days of rationing immediately after the end of the Second World War and of how the black shorts were in fact made out of re-cycled blackout curtains! I also remember how she used to organise "darning parties" where the players socks would be repaired and made comfortable for the next game. There was a good deal of mistrust and resentment when Tony Boyce decided to professionalise the fund raising and bring in Plymouth Argyle's Public Relations Officer Fred Easton as the club's first Commercial Manager, but the FACT was that the world of fundraising had moved into the professional age and age old gentlemans agreements of not poaching one another's punters had long since passed. Fred had a very able assistant, a former school master called Bill Pearce who put in much of the cold calling and door knocking necessary to enrole members from farther afield than the club's support that was now necessary to create an effective income stream and ~ you've guessed it; he in turn got "poached" by Argyle and went on to set up a simply stupendous operation for them that stretched from Land End to the very edge of Bristol. I well remember in "my time" the respective Commercial Managers of the three Devon clubs: Bill Pearce at Argyle, Alex Jackson at Plainmoor and City's Ray Ellis having frequent meetings and "swap shops" of lottery outlets that were more suited to one club on it's doorstep rather than being a "black person in the woodpile" of the opposition and the regular falling outs and subsequent fraternal making up between all three clubs! One such "super agent" that we at Plainmoor had was Reg Sandford, a Brixham coastguard; for at the time he had no interest in United or even football at all; but was a highly driven and hard working "door knocker and doorstep salesman" who worked incredibly hard to build up a fantastic retinue of members for us in that part of the bay . He absolutley fell in love with the club and could always be seen right up to his death working behind the scenes ~ in his later days as a front of house steward in the directors facilities and his daughter of course is Annie Sandford the club secretary and in my eyes a living legend who simply must be awarded a testimonial by the club before too long..............and a really gate busting one too. Poor Anne has stuck with the club through the Pope years, the Webb years, through the Bateson and Roberts regimes. She was a young schoolgirl helping ut on match days when I was there all those years ago, so she can't yet be forty can she? Maybe, but we shouldn't really enquire that of a lady should we. So yes Barty, no doubt your old mum did buy her bingo tickets from Argyle, but little doubt too that Bill Pearce had them on sale in the area as a "lost leader" handing out so much commission to his sellers as to render them virtually unprofitable but then he was stopping us selling ours wasn't he and I also suspect his agent was one he took with him when he moved from Plainmoor to Gnome Park!
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