merse
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Post by merse on Sept 16, 2008 3:13:40 GMT
I am afraid that some of your posts can be perceived as being overly critical of local supporters and given your connections and alignment with key parties may have an increased negative impact. . It would be a great shame if you so annoyed some on relatively minor issues that they ignore or miss some of the pearls of your wisdom  That's a pertinent point you make within a very well thought out and constructive post Andy, and advice I will endeavour to take on board. In my defence, I have been horrified by the seemingly orchestrated campaign to "Get Buckle Out" that has been growing since the end of last season. I don't really comprehend just what the agenda is. Is it to pursue some dream return of a failed and unemployable (in football management terms) "messiah"?, is it to make way for a coveted and untrustworthy former manager of the next door neighbours? Is it to destroy everything that a laudable board of directors have achieved and put in place in double quick time? Are "they" agitating to such an extent that they believe the former regime may once again return to the club? That is why I have been so heavy handed in my observations of this "local difficulty" and now to see the gates at such alarmingly low levels is hard to take without comment. Just what do stay aways believe they are achieving? Do they believe they are "teaching the directors a lesson"? Do they believe they are exerting intolerable pressure on them to make a potentially disastrous decision to tear everything up and start again? Just what is this sea change in attitude that demands that everything must be achieved "now" without a great deal of hard work, commitment and time invested....................none of which "they" are seemingly prepared to put in I might add. That it didn't happen instantly at Exeter or Doncaster seems to be of no relevance. That it did in the semi rural area of Carlisle seems to have been done without their recognition of the magnificent level of support the Cumbrians maintained in numbers through the turnstiles. Unlike some of those who have never moved away, I do not eschew one lifestyle over another; merely outlined my personal reasons for choosing the one I have (which in all reality is little different than any of the many other exiles) I will be honest here, it is only my grown up children and grand children together with my football affinity that lead me to show any greater interest in South Devon than in any other pleasant part of England after so much of my life in other parts. To those who have never moved (and why should they even consider it if they are happy?) it is perfectly possible to live a quality lifestyle almost anywhere if you are of a positive frame of mind - whether that be in North, South, East or West; city or countryside - coast or inland. It's not where you come from that matters in life, it's where you are, and to another extent; it is where you are going!Where is OUR football club going? |
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Post by ospelgull on Sept 16, 2008 6:40:57 GMT
Where is OUR football club going? Steady forward mate! Last week I witnessed Plainmoor myself and it has changed for the better compared with a few years ago. Actually, it is still getting better an better! Progress off the pitch will (eventually) result in progress on the pitch. I'm sure about it. |
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Sept 16, 2008 7:03:10 GMT
Andygulls & Merse.
Two great posts, from varying points of view which made for a compelling read.
Im not one for sitting on the fence, but its hard to disagree with either of you, but more importantly it highlights how much the club means to you both, regardless of where you live at the moment. Something that im not sure everyone who 'supports' TUFC has at the moment.
Nice one.
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Enzo
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Post by Enzo on Sept 16, 2008 10:48:04 GMT
I am afraid that some of your posts can be perceived as being overly critical of local supporters and given your connections and alignment with key parties may have an increased negative impact. . It would be a great shame if you so annoyed some on relatively minor issues that they ignore or miss some of the pearls of your wisdom That's a pertinent point you make within a very well thought out and constructive post Andy, and advice I will endeavour to take on board. In my defence, I have been horrified by the seemingly orchestrated campaign to "Get Buckle Out" that has been growing since the end of last season. I don't really comprehend just what the agenda is. Is it to pursue some dream return of a failed and unemployable (in football management terms) "messiah"?, is it to make way for a coveted and untrustworthy former manager of the next door neighbours? Is it to destroy everything that a laudable board of directors have achieved and put in place in double quick time? Are "they" agitating to such an extent that they believe the former regime may once again return to the club? Are you not looking too deeply into this? Is there really an orchestrated campaign to get Buckle out? Does there have to be an agenda?............. or is it just a growing amount of previously dedicated fans who have began to question and grow disillusioned with the tactical astuteness and recruitment policy of Paul Buckle. You had concerns about Leroy's management - did you raise them, pointing out your frustrations and fears? ..............or did you orchestrate a campaign to get Leroy out. Did you have an agenda.......or were you just growing increasingly frustrated with the direction of the club you hold dear? All people are doing is venting their frustration - such discussions used to take place between mates in the pub or on the way home from a game - In this internet age it is to be expected that such things are raised on websites. Fickle, short term minded football fans are nothing new. I have seen people say they have been 'sickened' and 'horrified' by a perceived campaign with an agenda. Is it half term in journalism school or something?? If something is crap over a period of time, more and more people will start saying that it is crap. In many games this season we have been crap - No campaign, just honest and frustrated fans saying it how they see it. Nobody is perfect and however decent a prospect Paul Buckle is, the bottom line is that he has not produced the expected goods for some time now - no Torquay fan with any experience will expect too much from a season, but the truth is if Buckle loses his job in the next month or so he will have no agenda to blame, no campaign - just the fact that he has failed to produce the required standard over a fairly lengthy (in football terms) period. He has produced a style of play that has turned off even fans like myself who are only concerned in the result - I don't care how it is achieved. Not all fans have this approach and Torquay fans are no different to many other clubs - if the product is poor they will not part with their money. Paul Buckle has far more culpability for dwindling crowds than any agenda driven campaign. After performnces against Ebbsfleet, Histon, Crawley and Kiddie, along with the unfortunate messing around with our fixture dates no fan should be critisised for walking away. Fans pay their money and take their choice........many are now choosing something else. In the past TUFC has been accused of taking fans for granted - nobody can expect people to watch what has been served up so far this season and continue to turn up week in, week out. Believe me, if someone like me thinks like this, there will be the floating fans who could live on Marnham Road and still wouldn't be arsed to go. I will support Buckle and hope he can turn things around. He is on a steep learning curve as a manager and deserves a little more time. You must accept that Buckle has made some shocking decisions in the last 6 months or so - all fans are doing is questioning why. If he continues to make the same mistakes over and over again then the Board will be forced to act as fans will continue to drift away. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 16, 2008 15:05:33 GMT
Well done Enzo, a common sense post based of facts and not how some what to see things. I too have grown tired of those who keep on about orchestrated campaign's and agenda's to get Buckle out. A post that has all the answers as to why fans feel the way they do and why gates are falling.
Yet Enzo does not ask that Buckle is sacked, but has pointed out the failings as he and many others see them and that Is what fans should be able to do on forums, Is it not?
I have had some Pm's on here, asking If the club has had words with the forums. I was advised to look a post on .net. I do not read .net, this Is the forum I run and only care what Is written on It. I looked to see what our member was on about.
It was a post saying that no Buckle out threads were to be started and In true .net style. It states that failure to obey, will result in yellow or red cards. I do not know If Louis has been contacted by the club, Or If he just felt his forum had too much negativity on It. Its his forum and he runs It his way.
I do know the club would like the forums full of positivity and do not want to read Buckle out type posts, but sorry TUFC this forum was set up for fans to be able to post their views. If you think the manager is the best we have had, you can say so, If you think he Is costing the team results, you can also say so.
I will take any flack that comes my way, because the day I feel I have to be told what you can post on here, will be the day I delete this forum. Its time for those who don't agree with other posters, to stop trying to make out that they have an agenda, far better to listen to their views, understand how they feel.
It will be far more productive In the end and maybe answers can be found, rounding them up and putting a label on them will do nothing and lets not forget, we are talking about people who have paid to watch and should be free to express their views.
I know some expect me to steer this forum In one direction, but I'm a fan just like you and my views most of the time, will be mine and not the forums views. Yes I have been more positive lately, partly to information I have been give that has lifted my expectations again. I have never once said its time to sack anybody, but believe me I have received criticism for some posts I have made, that has been deemed negative.
I have said time Is needed, to get some players In and to give Buckle the chance to get our season really going. I feel we do all need to do that, the word to me Is he Is going nowhere, so I see for now, there is no point asking for him to go. He Is staying far better to try and support any changes being made to try and Improve our situation.
If the time comes when nothing has changed then there should be no one, who claims the fans have an agenda, by then the club would or should have acted, lets never forget, the fans are not to blame for the poor form or tactic's.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 16, 2008 15:57:14 GMT
It's not forum webmasters who are making all the noises, it's not newspaper editors. In my opinion it's a nasty under current of "supporters" who wish to harangue, barrack and generally disrespect a manager who hasn't done at all badly in his inaugural season and has courageously and positively tried to expand upon the repertoire of the squad this time around. Some people wanted a different approach to playing, they got one. They weren't prepared to accept anything other than a repeat of last season's rampaging start using an excuse that "results/league position were unacceptable" after just a handful of games for the newly revamped squad. They have posted endlessly on the HE site, they have booed the team and now they are staying away - stamping their feet like petulant children saying they will not return until the manager is gone...................is that NOT campaigning to "Get Buckle Out"?That is NOT doing OUR club any good, and don't forget Paul Buckle came here as a first time manager, not the failed previous manager of clubs like Gloucester City and Merthyr Tydfil! He puts in 100% effort 24/7, not when he chooses to and NOT from a 90 minute commute away. No wonder Louis Higgins is squirming when posters on his site are calling for a return of that sort of laissez faire "management" by calling "Bring Back Leroy".................is that not orchestrating a "Get Buckle Out" campaign? No wonder the HE took action and removed some of the loony faction from their posts. You haven't seen me take you to task Dave for the way you run this site..........................it is a breath of fresh air (rather like the ether Southampton Gull has disappeared into of late from.net) and it is good to be able to take on the anti Buckle brigade and put up a counter argument to theirs. When people post on the HE site insinuating that directors of OUR club are "property developers" in disguise it's only rightful and diligent for the webmaster to take action, otherwise they lay themselves open to legal action....................and you would have to do the same if such lying tripe was posted on here. You neither need to censor posters on here nor interfere with their wish to put up different views of the same situation. You don't need to use the heavy hand of "moderation" and by way of reward, no-one abuses the privilege to post on a "Free Speech Forum" I have my views, Enzo has his; Dave Shaw has his whilst Atherington Gull (bless him) is manfully trying to wriggle out of the ultimatum he made last week but now wishes he hadn't. There's room for all of us on here....................and we STILL haven't been visited by the Loony Fringe! 
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 16, 2008 16:38:53 GMT
Andygulls
a great post for so many reasons, you do bring home just why I love Devon and I know my mate Rolf could not believe how Devon folk are so friendly to each other. You other points about the club and fans are views I fully share with you.
Merse
Every time I have talked to people about my club, I have always boasted about the fact we have fans all over the country. I'm quick to reel off the Capital gulls, the Yorkshire gulls even the Danish gulls. Maybe Its because I want my team too seem bigger than it is, but I think the real reason, Is to give the impression that to so many people across the UK, TUAFC is very important, that makes It feel even more important to me.
Its good to see these same fans, going to the away game and getting to Plainmoor when they can, I have nothing but respect for them all. Yet you have spend hours writing on forums, attacking and trying to belittle people who live in Torbay and even In Devon. Everything that is wrong, is according to you, down only to the people who live here.
Yet, who are you really, to think that you can look down on us here? I'm sure Atherington Gull , thinks like I once did, that you are some high flyer in London, when you are just like the rest of us a normal run Of the mill bloke.You think It clever to take the Piss, because someone like me, cares about Rockwalk, yet If all the people in the Bay, who do really care, ever cared as much about TUFC, we could fill a 100.000 stadium, no problem.
The true fact Is sadly not many care in Torbay that we have a football club, Yes a day trip to Wembely will get some Interested, because Its in the name Of Torquay, not much else.
Fans don't stop caring, because they have got to a point, where they feel, they wish to stay away from games. Fans want to have an enjoyable time with their leisure time, not keep going home wanting to kick the cat. Its time that some realised the fact , that If what you have on offer Is not good enough, people will look elsewhere, for their entertainment and pleasure.
Yet, It seems you want to blame them, they should support no matter what, those days have gone Merse, many here have not moved, just to try and earn more money. They stay because they really do value the quality of life and the people they share their environment with.
With less money(by choice) many will look at what they get from spending their hard earned cash, why pay and suffer something that no longer Is giving you any pleasure. Fans are now asked to pay even more money, to watch an even lower quality Of football, there are so many things to do that cost Less and at times like these, will give you far more enjoyment.
So don't knock those who now stay away, I'm sure they will tell you they think they are the sensible ones, what we must hope for, Is things improve and slowly they all return. To do that you will need a winning team that Is getting results, to think otherwise, Is foolish.
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Enzo
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Post by Enzo on Sept 16, 2008 17:30:25 GMT
It's not forum webmasters who are making all the noises, it's not newspaper editors. In my opinion it's a nasty under current of "supporters" who wish to harangue, barrack and generally disrespect a manager who hasn't done at all badly in his inaugural season and has courageously and positively tried to expand upon the repertoire of the squad this time around. Some people wanted a different approach to playing, they got one. They weren't prepared to accept anything other than a repeat of last season's rampaging start using an excuse that "results/league position were unacceptable" after just a handful of games for the newly revamped squad. They have posted endlessly on the HE site, they have booed the team and now they are staying away - stamping their feet like petulant children saying they will not return until the manager is gone...................is that NOT campaigning to "Get Buckle Out"?That is NOT doing OUR club any good, and don't forget Paul Buckle came here as a first time manager, not the failed previous manager of clubs like Gloucester City and Merthyr Tydfil! He puts in 100% effort 24/7, not when he chooses to and NOT from a 90 minute commute away. No wonder Louis Higgins is squirming when posters on his site are calling for a return of that sort of laissez faire "management" by calling "Bring Back Leroy".................is that not orchestrating a "Get Buckle Out" campaign? No wonder the HE took action and removed some of the loony faction from their posts. When people post on the HE site insinuating that directors of OUR club are "property developers" in disguise it's only rightful and diligent for the webmaster to take action, otherwise they lay themselves open to legal action....................and you would have to do the same if such lying tripe was posted on here. I have my views, Enzo has his; Dave Shaw has his whilst Atherington Gull (bless him) is manfully trying to wriggle out of the ultimatum he made last week but now wishes he hadn't. There's room for all of us on here....................and we STILL haven't been visited by the Loony Fringe! With respect, I think your admiration for Buckle, and perhaps your disdain for Leroy is rather weakening your objectivity on the matter. You don't half wax lyrical sometimes! Each to their own I suppose - one mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter - For your 'nasty under current' I see some fans independently choosing to do other things than watch TUFC in droves purely because the product on offer is not good enough. The odd muppet will shout something and the odd person will state a preference for another manager - when in football has that not been the case?? After years of thinking I should do more with my spare time, I have suddenly realised that I have actually been very busy co-ordinating a vicious a horrifying agenda driven campaign that Matt Hockley should not be anywhere near Plainmoor unless he is serving pies. You have been busy being the mastermind behind an agenda driven campaign against Steve Woods and every Torquay player under 5 an half feet. I don't know how will all find the time!! You mention that you are horrified with the haranguing and disrespectful barracking and outline some examples - in my opinion isolated examples, but fair enough -, but for changes in technology this is no different to that which any other under performing manager has endured over the years? It is part and parcel of football (for most teams and fans). When a team is performing badly fans will either not bother or, make their feelings known - self defeating, I agree, but it is nothing new and certainly no worse than O'Riordon, Rosenior, Impey and Knowles endured - just more widespread due to the internet. Torquay have performed badly for some time now. For years and years around 2,000 TUFC fans have put up with dross - this has been as bad as anything I have ever seen and fans are entitled to walk away. Your lack of objectivity is best summed up, in my opinion where you outline the summer signing activity where Buckle " has courageously and positively tried to expand upon the repertoire of the squad this time around"Where is the courage? Buckle was supported to the hilt by the board to attempt to bring in any player that wanted. He only just got out of Midfielders R Us and we end up with a hotch potch of riches in one area and desperately bereft in other areas. Did fans really get a different approach this season?? I did not see any clear plan......other than an awful decision to play Hargreaves at CB - which he scrapped after three or four games. His reaction to this alarmed me the most - if he had any confidence in his own ability he would have stuck to his plan. He didn't. Many things since the summer have suggested that Buckle is out of his depth. Why does any discussion about Paul Buckle with your good self end up with discussion about Leroy? If anyone is raging a campaign, it is yourself against Leroy - he crops up time and time again in your posts. I'm no Leroy fan, he soon was out of his depth when he needed to assemble his own squad. The reason why some fans have walked away and a very, very small minority can't help but barrack has nothing whatsoever to do with Leroy - let your dislike of him go and face the fact that Buckle has looked out of his depth at times this season. Yes, the new players need time to bed down..........but we started the season with 9 midfielders and no right back! Player after player has been asked to play out of position. The players settling has not been helped by a repeated shuffling of the pack and quite the worst organized pre-season I have seen in a long time. I too would put 100%, 24 hours a day seven days a week, but if the end product is as poor as it has been of late then it does not matter didly. We might as well have Compo back - tactically inept, but a great club man. |
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Post by chipnicker1 on Sept 16, 2008 18:52:39 GMT
Merse[glow=yellow,2,300]Every time I have talked to people about my club, I have always boasted about the fact we have fans all over the country.[/glow] I'm quick to reel off the Capital gulls, the Yorkshire gulls even the Danish gulls. Maybe Its because I want my team too seem bigger than it is, but I think the real reason, Is to give the impression that to so many people across the UK, TUAFC is very important, that makes It feel even more important to me. I was impressed to see a car filled with TUFC stickers driving around Stoke yesterday  |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Sept 16, 2008 20:29:32 GMT
After a good win at Cambridge and with it being on a Saturday for a change, it would be disappointing to see us get less than 2300. Hopefully they'll see enough to want to come back for the following game.
Eastbourne have started better than us - didn't think I'd ever say that - but I think we'll see a new found confidence from the lads on Saturday, hopefully with an EARLY goal.
I'm glad we experimented with formation at the weekend and would like to see us doing it again away from home with some very difficult fixtures coming up over the next few weeks.
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Post by buster on Sept 16, 2008 22:40:39 GMT
Enzo & Dave.. good posts.
Don`t know about campaigns or hidden agendas. Theres nowt so queer as folk as they say. There may well be some who have the tall poppy syndrome and can`t wait to be destructive.
For my part I had the opportunity to go to Cambridge, its only an hour or so away. But I didn`t. No one man protest, no desire to see an individual fail. So why didn`t I go?
It means going over old ground I`m afraid Merse but the present state of mind hasn`t suddenly appeared after a handful of games.
Through youthful naivety and plain stupidity I`ve followed Utd around the country when I could. There have been far more lows than highs as we all know only too well. I accepted the BSP and Setanta and couldn`t understand the "we should be back where we belong" view. In my eye we are where we belong, quite simply because its been mismanagement over many years at all levels that has got us where we are today.
When the opportunity came for us to actually win something I welcomed the League and Trophy. This made the time since Christmas all the more hard to bear. Quite simply I was gutted at the end of the season and vowed to never see a game again.
Close season came and I couldn`t share the optimism of some having never seen any of the signings before. I did feel last season we were suspect to soft goals but got away with it for a long time because of the goals scored. So couldn`t quite see why PB hadn`t addressed the defence. But time heals and whilst it was clear this would be a tougher season I was up for it again.
I even sent an email to the club suggesting the players may benefit from a better atmosphere in the ground. Giving ideas on how to whip up the crowd and perhaps get more in. Foolishly I thought I might get an acknowledgement............still waiting.
Pre season was a mess but I went along to the Woking game with an open mind. Quite honestly I was disapointed by the quality of play. Before I hear the quote "we have to accept the level we are playing at". I have seen youth teams more organised with better off the ball running and possession play. Who are capable of threading a through ball or making a pass with good weight, despite the conditions. We won, but I came away thinking apart from the 3 quality goals, I didn`t really enjoy myself.
Money of course is now sadly much more of a factor.
There has been the much publicised squad imbalance and square pegs in round holes.
So I guess its the old dripping tap that has finally taken its toll. I didn`t even listen to the Cambs game on the radio. Of course it was bound to happen that they would put on one of their best displays this season. Just my luck.
I`m not downbeat, just a little disillusioned. I want PB to turn it around and feel we can climb the league.
Utd have acted like a DJ who won`t play a record until the crowd starts dancing. But right now I feel I want to see what show is being put on before I buy a ticket. So jobs around the house get the vote at the moment. Nothing more nothing less.
buster
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2008 6:52:45 GMT
Likewise Buster, also an excellent post, seems Merse has nothing to say this morning, well how can anyone argue against, what is fact.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 17, 2008 15:23:19 GMT
.............seems Merse has nothing to say this morning, well how can anyone argue against, what is fact. Sometimes other matters have to take priority Dave, I'm sure you appreciate that fact. Buster, I read and respect your views, but as Saturday showed; if you decide to sit at home and darn yer socks you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face. I too have given watching The Gulls a miss before (and ironically also missed another stonking performance at Cambridge once through doing so) and I'm not having a go at people not going for the very valid reason they no longer enjoy it. No, what I object to are those who use staying away as some sort of ultimatum or "blackmail "....................."I'm not going whilst Buckle stays" and those who do go but choose to barrack and deride - Jeez, I'd sooner they stayed away too, but then it's not ME who needs their gate money! Just like September 07 was far too early to decide we were going to win the BSP last season; so September 08 is also far too early to write off this season. That's why taking all factors into consideration, I decided that 20/1 as an "outsider" less than a quarter way into the season was much better value than 6/1 2nd favourite in the pre-season when we effectively knew nothing. Time will tell. |
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Post by rivieralou on Sept 17, 2008 15:48:09 GMT
.............seems Merse has nothing to say this morning, well how can anyone argue against, what is fact. Sometimes other matters have to take priority Dave, I'm sure you appreciate that fact. Buster, I read and respect your views, but as Saturday showed; if you decide to sit at home and darn yer socks you'll be cutting off your nose to spite your face. I too have given watching The Gulls a miss before (and ironically also missed another stonking performance at Cambridge once through doing so) and I'm not having a go at people not going for the very valid reason they no longer enjoy it. No, what I object to are those who use staying away as some sort of ultimatum or "blackmail "....................."I'm not going whilst Buckle stays" and those who do go but choose to barrack and deride - Jeez, I'd sooner they stayed away too, but then it's not ME who needs their gate money! Just like September 07 was far too early to decide we were going to win the BSP last season; so September 08 is also far too early to write off this season. That's why taking all factors into consideration, I decided that 20/1 as an "outsider" less than a quarter way into the season was much better value than 6/1 2nd favourite in the pre-season when we effectively knew nothing. Time will tell. Very good post Merse!! I totally agree with you!! |
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Post by jond on Sept 17, 2008 15:56:36 GMT
We might be making up some more ground on someone because apparently the Conference is investigating whether a club fielded an ineligible player this season.
Rumour has it that it is Mansfield....
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