Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 7, 2010 19:30:53 GMT
It’s the fact we are to soft in this country and people never have to pay the price they really should have to for talking someone else’s life, if punishments really were so much more severe, then maybe people would start to think so much more when they are driving and innocent people will not have to lose their lives and their families having to live without them for the rest of theirs You state this as a fact Dave, but where's your evidence? It might not seem like it when you pass all those accidents, but by international standards, this country's roads are comparitively safe. Is it really true that this is only the case because we have harsher sentences for motoring offences than all the other countries with roads that are less safe, or could it be that the situation is a bit more complicated that that? Lambethgull if you need evidence all you have to do is read the papers most days and learn about the latest driver who has killed someone on our roads due to drink driving, using a mobile phone etc and look at the sentence they received. Having done a check on the Internet you are correct to say our roads are far safer than in many other countries and the records show that the number of fatal accidents on UK roads reached a record low in 2008.According to government statistics there were 2,538 people killed on Britain’s roads in 2008, down 14% on 2007’s figures. The figures for 2008 show the lowest number of road deaths since records began back in 1926. The highest post war figure was in 1966, when nearly 8,000 deaths were recorded on UK roads. Yet the drink-drive death toll on Britain's roads in 2008 was 430 compared with 410 in 2007, up by twenty and you have to ask why that is when you consider all the extra checks the police make year on year to try and get drink drivers off the road. Drink driving and using a mobile phone while driving are criminal offences and everyone knows that such activities can lead to a driver killing Innocent people just because he or she did not stick to the laws of this land. While these drivers have not set out to kill anyone, as far as I’m concerned its still manslaughter and should carry the longest sentence possible in law and a ban on driving for life. Can you give me one good reason why such irresponsible behaviour from people who don’t stop to think that everyone else has a right to live their life in full, should get such low sentences? Its not as If they did not know the possibilities their selfish action might have on others is it. If you drive around Dorset at this time you will find on many lampposts a sign that reads. There Is no excuseThis does really relates to those who have been caught speeding on the Dorset roads and when I see those signs I have to agree with them and those who break the law and then kill someone there can also be no excuse and its time some real punishment was handed out so those tempted will think long and hard before they break the law again
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Post by loyalgull on Jun 7, 2010 21:39:02 GMT
sadly dave there are those that think our sentencing is too hard on the poor old criminal,and sod the victim.And until the sentence fits the crime i am sorry but the law of the land is an ass
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Post by lambethgull on Jun 7, 2010 22:39:14 GMT
You state this as a fact Dave, but where's your evidence? It might not seem like it when you pass all those accidents, but by international standards, this country's roads are comparitively safe. Is it really true that this is only the case because we have harsher sentences for motoring offences than all the other countries with roads that are less safe, or could it be that the situation is a bit more complicated that that? Lambethgull if you need evidence all you have to do is read the papers most days and learn about the latest driver who has killed someone on our roads due to drink driving, using a mobile phone etc and look at the sentence they received. I don't need to look in a newspaper to know that thousands of people are killed or injured every year as a result of motoring offences, and that the perpetrators of these crimes often receive what appear on the face of it to be light sentences. What I am saying is that if you're going to claim its 'soft sentencing' (above other factors) that leads to these offences being commited, you're going to have to explain why countries with less safe roads AND harsher sentencing regimes have a far higher rate of accidents and roads that are less safe. And that goes not just for one or two examples, but the overwhelming majority of countries that have worse road safety records than we have here in the UK. Despite yet another cretinous utterance from loyalgull implying otherwise, I haven't once claimed that people who commit motoring offences shouldn't receive strong and appropriate custodial sentences. I of course believe every individual case and situation should be judged on an individual circumstances with all the facts to hand, but my own view is that to drink and drive or to gabble away on a mobile phone handset whilst in charge of a motor vehicle is to commit two of the most reckless and irresponsible acts a person can do. To kill or maim someone as result of such behaviour is a grievous act which should receive an lengthy custodial sentence. I just don't share your faith in the deterrent factor of such sentences.
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Post by loyalgull on Jun 7, 2010 22:59:50 GMT
you are amusing lambethgull
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Post by aussie on Jun 8, 2010 5:50:14 GMT
Well what a surprize {sic}Merse dissagrees with me, again, I just post things now and wait for him to tell me I`m wrong/ ignorant/ stupid/ Joe Barlow or what ever the great Lord Alan wants to label me as! Where on this thread to you find justification for a post like that? You are just becoming more and more bizarre, irritable and the sort of person who ~ if locked in the loo ~ would end up having a punch up with himself! It`s not just this thread, it`s every thread I post on you have to try and slag me down, I make a little mention of using hands free (which is legal by the way) and you have to dissagree because I posted it, every post I make lately you have to try and go one better and appear the ultimate wise one that sits higher than anyone else and I`m quite frankly f***ed off with it and your self proficating superiourity! You slag off Joe Barlow for being a bit of a plum which he might have been then you start labelling me as Joe Barlow or equivalent, well guess what pal! Up Yours!!!
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 8, 2010 8:58:06 GMT
blue tooth head sets are really cheap and easy to use but you still see loads of people with their phones stuck to the side of their head, My personal view is that even via Bluetooth or any other hands free, using a phone and therefore reducing one's capacity for concentration is wrong and at high motorway speeds; positively dangerous as is fiddling with one's in car entertainment system or legitimately installed two way communication system (radio).
My (again personal) benchmark is that I didn't answer my mobile (even via the Bluetooth) whilst on the motorway and certainly would never, ever pay attention to a text message. There are answerphone systems to use so use them, there are standards which we are all aware of so why drop below them on a whim? Not "one upmanship" Aussie, just putting my personal view as one who has spent most of his working life driving daily in some of the most congested and demanding traffic conditions in the Western World. It's one thing to give some of one's attention to what is being carried on in a conversation when driving on rural, non motorway highways; but completely another thing to do so in those highly demanding and concentrated conditions. Why do you think it is actually in contravention of The Traffic Commisioner for London's (i.e. The Metropolitan Police) Regulations for a PCV (bus) driver to even use a hands free system whilst driving a London bus? Because it is a distraction, a distraction that could cost a pedestrian or cyclist their life my friend. Even talking to or being spoken to by passengers whilst the vehicle is in motion is prohibited and there are properly visible notices to make that point clear to the passengers on the vehicle. Bear that in mind before you consider point scoring and whingeing.
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Pappy
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Post by Pappy on Jun 8, 2010 14:44:55 GMT
I don`t think anyone is labelling anyone as "JOE BARLOW" really, I think Merse is saying his veiw on the subject at hand. Thats what is seems like on this thread, but I dont know about any other thread. Cant we stick to the subject of the thread and leave out the name calling, it doesn`t help really. Plus I know Joe and don`t really agree with what you said Aussie.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 8, 2010 16:36:59 GMT
Lambeth, as has happened many times before, the deeper we have gone into a debate we learn there are many things we do agree on and there are some we may never ever agree on as long as we both live. It goes without saying that longer and more appropriate sentences should happen and if for no other reason, then so the family and loved ones of any victim can feel some sort of justice has been done.
That is so often not the case as we know and it should never be forgotten those who are left behind often feel they have been given a life sentence of their own to try and live the rest of their lives with.
I really do not know about road safety or punishments for offences in other countries and therefore until I get the time to do some research on the subject, I can’t really give you an answer to your question. But I can give you me views why I feel if punishments were just that, punishments, then real crime and crimes like the one we have been discussing on this thread and others in the past, would be greatly reduced.
I believe our difference in views is caused by the fact we grew up in a different generation and therefore see punishment in a completely different way from each other and just what effect it can have and the lessons it can teach and I do know when I was growing up you really did learn the hard way, right from wrong.
Most things we do in life require us to apply some sort of thought to it, when we don’t it’s often the case we end up with all sorts of troubles simply because we acted and never stopped to consider the consequences of what might happen.
Knowing the consequences of our actions and what might be the end result is very important in decision making and as a result there will be times you decide not to proceed with something because the consequences may end up just too severe.
Imagine you came across a very large glass box that had small flap built into it that you would be able to open and if you stretched a bit could reach the middle of the box. In the middle is £500 in notes held together by an elastic band and there are also 50 live and hungry looking rats inside the box.
Weighing things up you might decide that you could get you arm in and out in three seconds, grabbing the money and you might get lucky and the rats might take no notice of you, or at the very worst get bitten a few times and that may well we worth it to get that £500. Your decision to give it a go would have been based on the fact that you had come to the conclusion the consequences would not have been to bad for you and so you go ahead and steal the money.
Now let’s say you come across the box again only this time sat next to the £500 is a very hungry looking crocodile with his mouth wide open, the consequences of putting your arm in that box are a whole lot different now as you know it won’t be a bite you have to worry about, its if you will have an arm left should you decide to try and get that £500.
The chances are you won’t even try to get the money, you will know the price may be just to high and a price you are not prepared to pay and if punishments were made based on this idea, then I firmly believe crime rates really would go down.
Yes I know when you had to make this decision you were of sound mind, emotionally stable and not drunk or under the influence of drugs and I can hear someone know saying a drunk person is not capable of making good and sound decisions and that is why they get in their cars and drive them when they are not fit to drive.
But why do they drive when they are drunk? Is it because they feel they won’t get caught and if they do it will only be a fine and a one year ban from driving? While they will never give it a thought they could kill someone, they may will feel the risk is worth taking because at the very worst the consequences are really not that bad at all.
Now you take me, most know I don’t drink very often, but there are times when Carol and I go to a wedding or a party I may like to have a drink or two. I have no worries sticking to the amount I may have planned to drink and I know no one will make me have another drink if I don’t want one that simply is never going to happen.
But I could never really be sure if I may have gone slightly over the drink driving limit and lets say I had and then drove home feeling fine and fit to drive and got stopped by the police. The breath test proves positive and I get charged and then in the court the judge fines me and bans me for a year. The thing is not only have I just received a large fine and can’t drive my car for a year, I also just lost my job as without a driving licence I can’t do my job.
Now the consequences of drinking and driving would be far too high and not worth taking the risk over and for that reason If I do plan to go to a party and have even one drink, I leave my car in the garage as I have discovered to my costs over the years, there are often never second chances.
That is why I believe if the deterrent is strong enough it will work and if lets say it was decided that anyone caught over the drink drive limit would get an automatic 25 year ban from driving, do you not think they would think long and hard about going to the pub in their car? There would have to be no exceptions as there could never be any excuses for anyone who might still be stupid enough to take such a big risk.
Human rights have gone too far, there was a time people were sent to prison and did what was known as hard labour and if I ran a prison you would get fed, have to work hard all day and then be locked up in your bare cell for the night. You would never be allowed to have visitors and your life would be so unhappy you would make sure you never came back to my prison again.
Listen I’m not some hard faced person, far from it as I still cry when Lassies on the TV, but I come from a time when punishments were so hard you learned from them and made sure you never did anything that would see you receiving that punishment ever again.
At the end of the day most of us are all decent law abiding citizens trying to get through life as best we can. It is never right that those who won’t live by the same rules we have to and think they can do what ever they want and never have one regard for everyone else, should end up not having to pay a really big price and not receive the punishments their deeds and actions fully deserve, ones that would have made them stop and think hard about before they ever committed a crime in the first place.
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Post by stefano on Jun 8, 2010 18:18:03 GMT
That is why I believe if the deterrent is strong enough it will work and if lets say it was decided that anyone caught over the drink drive limit would get an automatic 25 year ban from driving, do you not think they would think long and hard about going to the pub in their car? There would have to be no exceptions as there could never be any excuses for anyone who might still be stupid enough to take such a big risk. The main problem with that is that there are a lot of people in society who take no notice of a disqualification anyway, they just carry on driving, so I think something like a 25 year ban would only increase the number who would carry on regardless. Then it's back to the crime and punishment debate. At one time driving whilst disqualified normally resulted in a prison sentence, but no longer and if somebody does happen to go to prison on the second or third time of being caught it is a looked on as a minor inconvenience and something they will put up with for a while, they do after all come out better fed and fitter. People who are caught several times for driving whilst disqualified are normally disqualified for several years as they get further disqualifications anyway, so clearly the length of a ban will be a deterrant to some but not others. Hope you can understand what I'm saying as I've just read it back and haven't got a clue what I was talking about! ;D
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Post by lambethgull on Jun 8, 2010 19:20:29 GMT
Lambeth, as has happened many times before, the deeper we have gone into a debate we learn there are many things we do agree on and there are some we may never ever agree on as long as we both live. I have already outlined my thoughts on crime, punishment, justice and human rights elsewhere on this forum, Dave. The results of this were straw man attacks from certain quarters, entrenching of respective positions in others, and no doubt a huge amount of boredom for everyone else. I have no intention of going through that again in this thread. I am however in agreement with the quote of yours that I have highlighted above
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Post by aussie on Jun 9, 2010 5:58:26 GMT
I don`t think anyone is labelling anyone as "JOE BARLOW" really, I think Merse is saying his veiw on the subject at hand. Thats what is seems like on this thread, but I dont know about any other thread. Cant we stick to the subject of the thread and leave out the name calling, it doesn`t help really. Plus I know Joe and don`t really agree with what you said Aussie. I know Joe as well, I was refering to a post in which Merse refered to me as being like Joe, it wasn`t me being an arse to Joe it was Merse, I just refered back to what he said. Straw man `eh Lambeth, it`s still calling names or putting people in boxes isn`t it, just like someone else does but if I dare do it then apparently I`m attacking someone and it`s NOT just MY point of view. Some of the double standards set here are truely unbelievable, you say what you state is your opinion but if I state something then I`m attacking people. You thrust your opinion on others but expect no-one to have their own views or be able to say them because you obviously must know better!
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Post by lambethgull on Jun 9, 2010 11:58:33 GMT
Straw man `eh Lambeth, it`s still calling names or putting people in boxes isn`t it, just like someone else does but if I dare do it then apparently I`m attacking someone and it`s NOT just MY point of view. Some of the double standards set here are truely unbelievable, you say what you state is your opinion but if I state something then I`m attacking people. You thrust your opinion on others but expect no-one to have their own views or be able to say them because you obviously must know better! It's not actually. 'Straw man attack' refers to a debating strategy rather than the person who deploys it. I suggest you lighten up a bit. These early morning rants - as amusing as they are to read - can't be good for your blood pressure.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 9, 2010 12:26:39 GMT
Straw man `eh Lambeth, it`s still calling names or putting people in boxes isn`t it, just like someone else does but if I dare do it then apparently I`m attacking someone and it`s NOT just MY point of view. [/color] [/quote] It's not actually. 'Straw man attack' refers to a debating strategy rather than the person who deploys it. I suggest you lighten up a bit. These early morning rants - as amusing as they are to read - can't be good for your blood pressure.[/quote] I was once told by a policeman, "we never fight with gypsies or lunatics.....................they never know when they are beaten and just keep coming back for more"Perhaps we should leave him alone to struggle with his straightjacket ~ perhaps that's thre trigger for the early morning madness anyway!
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Jun 9, 2010 14:24:35 GMT
Of course stronger punishments are a deterrent. That's why there are no murders in the USA. (I'll let someone else do a breakdown of States.)
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Post by stefano on Jun 9, 2010 14:52:58 GMT
Of course stronger punishments are a deterrent. That's why there are no murders in the USA. (I'll let someone else do a breakdown of States.) Rob the Legal Profession are not allowed to take part in such debates due to an overwhelming desire to maintain the status quo Only another 47 hours for the footie to start then it will be mainly footie posts, so I will be able to keep up ;D
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