|
Post by aussie on Jan 11, 2010 9:40:12 GMT
Not going to tune in to the Africa Cup Of Nations as I don`t want to be seen pandering to terrorism, if they`ve got no audience then they will have no cause and then anything they do will be pointless! I also believe the World Cup should be re-located due to the fact that there is absolutely no security in South Africa or Africa and if Bin Laden wanted to really go for it then that would be the biggest and most media covered place of all time and far too easy for terrorists to attack, we`ve already seen one attack from an un-organized outfit just image the devastation a properly organized attack could produce! In fact I`d go as far to say that I would rather Australia pulled out of the World Cup to avoid any players or fans getting killed, it`s a cup that`s not worth dieing for, no cup is worth dieing for! Starting to worry about Englands cricket team that`s out there at the moment, they need to get that last test out of the way and fly back really soon before someone targets them, it happened in India not so long ago so what`s to say it won`t happen in South Africa! Until South Africa can come up with an anti-terror strategy and a convincing one at that then the World Cup should be moved to a place that can protect it`s borders and guarantee internal safety!
|
|
|
Post by longeatongull on Jan 11, 2010 20:36:46 GMT
Not going to tune in to the Africa Cup Of Nations as I don`t want to be seen pandering to terrorism, if they`ve got no audience then they will have no cause and then anything they do will be pointless! I also believe the World Cup should be re-located due to the fact that there is absolutely no security in South Africa or Africa and if Bin Laden wanted to really go for it then that would be the biggest and most media covered place of all time and far too easy for terrorists to attack, we`ve already seen one attack from an un-organized outfit just image the devastation a properly organized attack could produce! In fact I`d go as far to say that I would rather Australia pulled out of the World Cup to avoid any players or fans getting killed, it`s a cup that`s not worth dieing for, no cup is worth dieing for! Starting to worry about Englands cricket team that`s out there at the moment, they need to get that last test out of the way and fly back really soon before someone targets them, it happened in India not so long ago so what`s to say it won`t happen in South Africa! Until South Africa can come up with an anti-terror strategy and a convincing one at that then the World Cup should be moved to a place that can protect it`s borders and guarantee internal safety! Well done Aussie---your posts are getting longer and longer!!!--This poster of the week award is really driving you on isnt it? ;D Youll be going for Poet Laureate next!!! ;D
|
|
Enzo
TFF member
Posts: 283
|
Post by Enzo on Jan 11, 2010 20:51:09 GMT
Not going to tune in to the Africa Cup Of Nations as I don`t want to be seen pandering to terrorism, if they`ve got no audience then they will have no cause and then anything they do will be pointless! I also believe the World Cup should be re-located due to the fact that there is absolutely no security in South Africa or Africa and if Bin Laden wanted to really go for it then that would be the biggest and most media covered place of all time and far too easy for terrorists to attack, we`ve already seen one attack from an un-organized outfit just image the devastation a properly organized attack could produce! In fact I`d go as far to say that I would rather Australia pulled out of the World Cup to avoid any players or fans getting killed, it`s a cup that`s not worth dieing for, no cup is worth dieing for! Starting to worry about Englands cricket team that`s out there at the moment, they need to get that last test out of the way and fly back really soon before someone targets them, it happened in India not so long ago so what`s to say it won`t happen in South Africa! Until South Africa can come up with an anti-terror strategy and a convincing one at that then the World Cup should be moved to a place that can protect it`s borders and guarantee internal safety! Is this post for real? You won't pander to to terrorists, but you would rather Australia pull out of the World Cup because of an attack probably about 1000 miles away. You want England's cricketers back asap? Are you not confusing the continent of Africa with the country of South Africa. There are plenty of challanges facing South Africa for this summer, but I feel you are being slightly reactionary. Your reaction is similar to saying that London should not host the Olympics because of the Madrid bombings. As a matter of interest, can any country have any kind of perfect anti terrorist strategy in the face of people who will stop at nothing (including blowing themselves up) to create carnage? Wasn't there a bomb at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996? ..........or closer to home the IRA bomb in Manchester during Euro 1996.
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Jan 11, 2010 22:00:39 GMT
Not going to tune in to the Africa Cup Of Nations as I don`t want to be seen pandering to terrorism, if they`ve got no audience then they will have no cause and then anything they do will be pointless! I also believe the World Cup should be re-located due to the fact that there is absolutely no security in South Africa or Africa and if Bin Laden wanted to really go for it then that would be the biggest and most media covered place of all time and far too easy for terrorists to attack, we`ve already seen one attack from an un-organized outfit just image the devastation a properly organized attack could produce! In fact I`d go as far to say that I would rather Australia pulled out of the World Cup to avoid any players or fans getting killed, it`s a cup that`s not worth dieing for, no cup is worth dieing for! Starting to worry about Englands cricket team that`s out there at the moment, they need to get that last test out of the way and fly back really soon before someone targets them, it happened in India not so long ago so what`s to say it won`t happen in South Africa! Until South Africa can come up with an anti-terror strategy and a convincing one at that then the World Cup should be moved to a place that can protect it`s borders and guarantee internal safety! Is this post for real? You won't pander to to terrorists, but you would rather Australia pull out of the World Cup because of an attack probably about 1000 miles away. You want England's cricketers back asap? Are you not confusing the continent of Africa with the country of South Africa. There are plenty of challanges facing South Africa for this summer, but I feel you are being slightly reactionary. Your reaction is similar to saying that London should not host the Olympics because of the Madrid bombings. As a matter of interest, can any country have any kind of perfect anti terrorist strategy in the face of people who will stop at nothing (including blowing themselves up) to create carnage? Wasn't there a bomb at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996? ..........or closer to home the IRA bomb in Manchester during Euro 1996. Last time I looked South Africa was on the African continent, like the name might suggest South Africa is in the South of Africa! Thus making your analogy about London and Madrid totally ludicrous! Boarder control is very poor over there on the African continent and we have a great big bit of water between us and Spain in case you hadn`t noticed! I didn`t suggest that the World Cup gets hosted by England Or America, you also seem to be under the impression that third world nations around South Africa have good to adequate security! You seem to also be under the impression that it`s o.k to die for a cup competition, next you`ll be saying that a bit of terrorism ain`t that bad! If I`m being reactionary then so must some of the high profile footballers over there that are calling for the African Cup Of Nations to be canceled! I ask you is your post for real?
|
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 11, 2010 23:26:14 GMT
Aussie my own knowledge on terrorism is very little, but Merse explained the situation that was responsible for the shootings According to Bijou (who's mother has business interests in Cabinda as well as Kinshasa in DR Congo) the Angolan party were short cutting the agreed method of travel from their training base in Congo DR ~ a separate country to DR Congo and sometimes known as Congo Brazzaville. The city of Brazzaville sits in the old French Congo and is the capital on the north bank of the Congo River and Kinshasa on the South Bank is the capital of the vast former Belgian Congo once known as Zaire. Cabinda is situated at the mouth of the Congo River on the South bank and shares it's border with DR Congo thus allowing that country a narrow access to the Atlantic Ocean before the rest of the southerly coast is Angola. To understand this situation you have to appreciate that the old colonial powers divided up these "territories" ~ Angola was Portuguese and now there is the age old problem of the Cabindans enjoying a high standard of living due to their oil revenues whilst the surrounding areas are poverty stricken. Angola sufered a civil war that raged for 27 years and the Cabindans have a separatist movement who want total independence from Angola rather than the tax revenue paying autonomy they currently live under and it is this campaign the attack was designed to publicise. Had the Togolese FA kept to the arrangements and flown to Cabinda via the Angolan capital of Luanda from Congo Brazzaville, the security would have taken care of them, as it is they "did their own thing" and suffered the consequences. Again, according to Bijou; her family who have members of it living in Kinshasa, Cabina and Luanda ALWAYS travel through Luanda for the very reason of insecurity making the land crossing that proved so deadly for the Togolese. I don't think it matters where any major sporting event takes place, if some group wants to cause death etc, they will do it anywhere and no venue could ever be 100% safe. I do think its very wrong that sport is targeted as it sometimes by terrorists and sadly I'm sure it will be again, our world is not the safe place we would like it to be, but just how can it be made safe so everyone can live without fear.
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Jan 12, 2010 9:21:48 GMT
I appreciate that nowhere will be 100% safe but some places are 0% safe and if I was going to try and host something like that I would try to get that percentage rate up as high as possible not just say "oh it doesn`t matter we may as well have no security because nowhere is 100% safe"! That`s just madness, you try to minimize all the risks, driving team buses through war torn areas is absolute insanity! Countries that cannot guarantee a certain level of security should not be allowed to risk peoples lives for money (which is why these competitions take place MONEY ), Afganistan needs money lets hold the Asian Cup there, it`s madness for money! None of it helps the people who need help, none of it goes towards raising standards it all goes towards evil regimes, despots and dictators like Robert Mugabe!
|
|
merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
|
Post by merse on Jan 12, 2010 17:37:09 GMT
you try to minimize all the risks, driving team buses through war torn areas is absolute insanity! Countries that cannot guarantee a certain level of security should not be allowed to risk peoples lives for money Your missing the important FACT I pointed out in my first post on this subject Aus.................... Togo contributed to their own tragedy by doing just that ~ driving their OWN team buses accross the border from Congo Brazzaville when they had been specifically told not to. They were told to fly to Luanda and thence fly again to Cabinda, but they decided to "do their own thing" and paid the consequences. Then they declare they are pulling out only to ask to return to the tournament almost in the same breath. What you have to realise about sub Saharan African society is that there is a huge amount of posturing and one upmanship going on between many despotic and brutal dictatorships, and Togo's is as brutal and despotic as any. Dictatorships that have been kept in power through expediency by the same Western powers by who once carved up the continent for their own purposes, namely profit and easy access to mineral and commodity wealth. Theses dictators have merely replaced the old kings who reigned under the colonial powers who granted them "independence" but in fact granted them nothing of the sort as they had neither the governmental infrastructure or skills to rule in the modern world. The early euphoric introduction of "democracy" has given way to the old style autocracies who depend on finance and armed supplies from their particular paymasters....................be it oil companies, mining companies or the governments of industrial nations like China, Russia, the USA and the UK of course who tie them up in a web of aid programmes that are in fact no more than a "tied house" form of exclusive trade agreements giving them no more leeway than your average back street pub gets from it's brewery. The gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" grows wider and wider and the need to protect what they have leads to the "haves" protecting it in ever increasing violent and brutal rule. Brutal rule rule that is kept in place by the paymasters of the Western and now Eastern World. You say you won't tune into the Cup of Nations so as not to pander to terrorism, what does that achieve? You say the World Cup, due to start in just over six months time; should be re-located....................to where and to what purpose? You say there is absolutely no security in South Africa.................do you know that? You say South Africa should come up with an Anti Terror Strategy......................are you saying they don't have one then? Angola have an Anti Terror Strategy, but one nation willfully chose to ignore it.......................it's as stupid as providing training facilities for a foreign cycling team in the UK in preparation for the 2012 Olympics and they decide to ignore it and get mown down riding along the M4! Would you turn around and blame the host country or the visiting squad? The African Football Confederation have every right to hold their own tournament, why shouldn't they? The FIFA World Cup has been awarded for the first time to an African nation and that nation is to all intents and purposes the most sophisticated and secure on that continent. Are you saying that FIFA should not attempt to stage a World Cup in Africa? You come form Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population for the convenience of the conquering European. Are you saying you have no comprehension of the aspirations and the desire for self determination that ALL indigenous people have? I really think you should rethink on what you have stated Aussie, it is simply NOT as simplistic or (forgive the pun) black and white as you make out.
|
|
Enzo
TFF member
Posts: 283
|
Post by Enzo on Jan 12, 2010 21:53:46 GMT
Is this post for real? You won't pander to to terrorists, but you would rather Australia pull out of the World Cup because of an attack probably about 1000 miles away. You want England's cricketers back asap? Are you not confusing the continent of Africa with the country of South Africa. There are plenty of challanges facing South Africa for this summer, but I feel you are being slightly reactionary. Your reaction is similar to saying that London should not host the Olympics because of the Madrid bombings. As a matter of interest, can any country have any kind of perfect anti terrorist strategy in the face of people who will stop at nothing (including blowing themselves up) to create carnage? Wasn't there a bomb at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996? ..........or closer to home the IRA bomb in Manchester during Euro 1996. Last time I looked South Africa was on the African continent, like the name might suggest South Africa is in the South of Africa! Thus making your analogy about London and Madrid totally ludicrous! Boarder control is very poor over there on the African continent and we have a great big bit of water between us and Spain in case you hadn`t noticed! I didn`t suggest that the World Cup gets hosted by England Or America, you also seem to be under the impression that third world nations around South Africa have good to adequate security! You seem to also be under the impression that it`s o.k to die for a cup competition, next you`ll be saying that a bit of terrorism ain`t that bad! If I`m being reactionary then so must some of the high profile footballers over there that are calling for the African Cup Of Nations to be canceled! I ask you is your post for real? I'm not sure it is worth answering, but as you ask a few questions......... The analogy with Madrid was used because that is roughly (perhaps very roughly) a similar distance to the case in question. Just as South Africa is in the same continent as Angola, England is in the same continent as Spain. Border Controls between EU countries are minimal so I really wouldn't rely on our borders. That "bit of water means nothing". In a certain respect our island status makes it easier for an un-welcome visitor to enter the UK. I never mentioned anything about the quality of security in Africa. I never suggested that you suggested that the World Cup should be held in either England or the US - I raised Atlanta and Manchester in 1996 as examples of how even the most security concious states cannot provide safety. I thought you were being reactionary when you were suggesting that the World Cup should be moved or that England's cricketers should come home asap. I never gave an opinion on whether I thought the African Cup of Nations should continue and am not suprised that some players think it should be scrapped out of respect. I never mentioned or infered anything about feeling that it is Ok to die in a tournament.........and I won't be saying that a little bit of terrorism is no bad thing. I think you are being slightly reactionary to suggest that I might. So......you would scrap the tournament......or maybe just refuse to watch it, call England's cricketers back home and move the world cup from being hosted in a country in the same continent.............just as long as you don't pander to terrorists eh!
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Jan 13, 2010 18:09:14 GMT
you try to minimize all the risks, driving team buses through war torn areas is absolute insanity! Countries that cannot guarantee a certain level of security should not be allowed to risk peoples lives for money You come form Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population for the convenience of the conquering European. Are you saying you have no comprehension of the aspirations and the desire for self determination that ALL indigenous people have? I really think you should rethink on what you have stated Aussie, it is simply NOT as simplistic or (forgive the pun) black and white as you make out. That`s funny I thought the Aboriginal slaughter took place while Australia was still under British rule, oh yeah it did didn`t it? Britain`s got a lot too be proud of if you want to have a dig about my history mate or should I say descendant of a slave trader and descendant of brutal invaders of innocent peoples countries! Easy too sling mud isn`t it, it even easier to be a hypocrite!
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Jan 13, 2010 18:38:33 GMT
|
|
merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
|
Post by merse on Jan 13, 2010 20:30:50 GMT
You come form (sic) Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population for the convenience of the conquering European. That`s funny I thought the Aboriginal slaughter took place while Australia was still under British rule, oh yeah it did didn`t it? Britain`s got a lot too be proud of if you want to have a dig about my history mate or should I say descendant of a slave trader and descendant of brutal invaders of innocent peoples countries! Easy too sling mud isn`t it, it even easier to be a hypocrite! Aussie....................your unwillingness/inability to read things properly and then jump on your soapbox making totally inaccurate accusations is reaching epic proportions on this forum. Now read my post again (for the umpteenth time ) and consider whether your response is logical or not. Wild and incorrect assumptions that slavery in the Third world was a phenomenon brought about by the arrival of the European are way wide of the mark. The African kingdoms were well established in the acquisition of captured and forced labour many centuries before the European arrived on their continent. Slaves were habitually traded between kingdoms as part of everyday trade and also with the Arab world particularly on the Eastern and Northern sea board of the continent. Slaves routinely available "for barter" were readily offered as "currency" by African Kings ands War Lords to arriving Europeans from Portuguese, Spanish and the British as far back in history to the Viking and Phoenician traders and explorers of the Middle Ages and well before that. Indigenous inhabitants of the British Isles were subject to slavery to invading Viking and Roman tribes and armies, so you should begin to understand that "slavery" was not the exclusive invention of "The White Man" nor indeed the sole tool of trade of "The Black Man" but merely an act of trade and war, conquering and submission; so please take something for that toothache of yours and sit down and get rid of that persecution complex!
|
|
|
Post by aussie on Jan 14, 2010 7:44:08 GMT
That`s funny I thought the Aboriginal slaughter took place while Australia was still under British rule, oh yeah it did didn`t it? Britain`s got a lot too be proud of if you want to have a dig about my history mate or should I say descendant of a slave trader and descendant of brutal invaders of innocent peoples countries! Easy too sling mud isn`t it, it even easier to be a hypocrite! Aussie....................your unwillingness/inability to read things properly and then jump on your soapbox making totally inaccurate accusations is reaching epic proportions on this forum. Now read my post again (for the umpteenth time ) and consider whether your response is logical or not. Wild and incorrect assumptions that slavery in the Third world was a phenomenon brought about by the arrival of the European are way wide of the mark. The African kingdoms were well established in the acquisition of captured and forced labour many centuries before the European arrived on their continent. Slaves were habitually traded between kingdoms as part of everyday trade and also with the Arab world particularly on the Eastern and Northern sea board of the continent. Slaves routinely available "for barter" were readily offered as "currency" by African Kings ands War Lords to arriving Europeans from Portuguese, Spanish and the British as far back in history to the Viking and Phoenician traders and explorers of the Middle Ages and well before that. Indigenous inhabitants of the British Isles were subject to slavery to invading Viking and Roman tribes and armies, so you should begin to understand that "slavery" was not the exclusive invention of "The White Man" nor indeed the sole tool of trade of "The Black Man" but merely an act of trade and war, conquering and submission; so please take something for that toothache of yours and sit down and get rid of that persecution complex! You seem to have misses my point completely and as usual are trying to squirm out of an embarrasing inaccuracy, You Said " You come form Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population" I take that personally because I have Aboriginal friends and am Australian, the FACT is we didn`t brutally murder ( as you state ) the Aboriginals the British did, that`s the part you seem to over look that you clearly said, you can`t blame a continent you have to blame the people, the land didn`t get up and kill anyone, you state " a continent that....." well it wasn`t the continent, it wasn`t the Aussies it was for the last and final time the Bloody BRITISH! FFS but then again your never wrong are you Sir Merse?
|
|
merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
|
Post by merse on Jan 14, 2010 16:34:21 GMT
Aussie....................your unwillingness/inability to read things properly and then jump on your soapbox making totally inaccurate accusations is reaching epic proportions on this forum. Now read my post again (for the umpteenth time ) and consider whether your response is logical or not. There's little point attempting a debate with someone who hasn't got the basic ability to read and quote accurately, who doesn't really understand what has been posted. I'm not carrying on with this pointless refusal/inability of yours in failing to grasp just what has been posted by me and your clouded judgement because you "take this personally". If you can't/won't grasp the FACT that I posted "for the convenience of the conquering European" and try to distort that into my saying it was "Australians" it really is a pointless exercise Aussie
|
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2010 23:07:54 GMT
Well this thread has sure drifted away from its threat title and I really do not have any real knowledge about who did what to who.
But when I read this line posted by merse
You come form Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population for the convenience of the conquering European
I took it to mean the Aussies wiped out the indigenous population, the words on the end for the convenience of the conquering European to me sounds like they did it for the conquering European's, so I can see why Aussie is upset.
maybe its me as well Merse mis reading your post, but I have read that line many times now and it sounds the same every time.
|
|
merse
TFF member
Posts: 2,684
|
Post by merse on Jan 15, 2010 4:30:30 GMT
You come form Australia ~ a continent that brutally virtually wiped out the indigenous population for the convenience of the conquering EuropeanI took it to mean the Aussies wiped out the indigenous population, the words on the end for the convenience of the conquering European to me sounds like they did it for the conquering European's, so I can see why Aussie is upset. Maybe it's time for a little self education for you and Aussie. Start with the life and career of Anthony van Dieman (1593-1645), continue with the history of the Dutch East India Company and then follow that up with the life and achievements of Captain James Cook (1728-1779) then continue with the story of the development of the Penal Servitude Programme from 1770 onwards. It was in 1901 that the "Commonwealth of Australia" came into being, so therefore until that date the "Australians" were the idigenous people and thereafter and only thereafter; could the Europeans or European descendents be described as Australian. Even Aussie's link only served to underline my point and discredit his displeasure and umbrage. The mistreatment of the Aboriginal people neither began nor ended in 1901 gentlemen, now please read again what I posted.
|
|