South Devon League founded 1903

I've got absolutely no idea of what lies behind the confusion between 1902 and 1903. But - as we've seen from Torquay United's own story - history is sometimes left in the hands of people who are rather cavalier with facts. Say - or write - something wrong once and it can easily be repeated over and over again.

And, as Jon said recently, wouldn't it be great to see a list of league champions over the years?

I know exactly why the SDL believes it was formed in 1902. Somebody read it in a book and did not question it - exactly the same thing that happened with TUFC and actually the very same book. That Mr Luscombe has a lot to answer for!

Luscombe wrote " Mr James Harrison .... was instrumental in founding the Torquay and District League, of which incidentally, I was also the first hon. secretary, in 1902. Mr Harrison gave the league its first trophy which, I believe, is still in existence."

At least Mr Luscombe is consistent in being one year early both for the formation of TUFC and of the league.

Nobody should really be surprised at a league or a club getting its foundation date wrong. It happens all the time.

With the exception of the SDL, all organisations seem to welcome any information on their history and to be happy to correct errors as it is important to get it right.

What is disappointing with the SDL is that they have received all the proof they need but have pointedly chosen to ignore it. They obviously put "saving face" above telling the truth.

There is no disgrace in admitting you made a mistake but there is disgrace in continuing to peddle a false history knowing it to be wrong.

Which is entirely to be expected unless a written history of the SDL has been produced at some stage. Yes, it would be great to see such information on the SDL's website but we have to remember that material of this type only arrives on the web thanks to the goodwill of individuals. I guess a kind soul made made such an effort by putting the list of Herald Cup winners online. As for the date of the league's formation, this history lark isn't easy is it? Not even when it comes to apparently simple matters.

I suspect Jon has a point when he says an early historian got things wrong and others followed. This, I fear, is a fact of life when it comes to very localised history. I became aware of something similar more than thirty years ago when I was doing a university dissertation on the growth of Torquay between 1848 and 1892. I quickly noticed that each subsequent history - making up a series written over a span of a hundred years -virtually copied the words of its immediate predecessor. This meant that, not only were mistakes repeated, but also that what each chose to include - or omit - was followed by the next in line. Taking the social history angle - as I was - it was frustrating to learn over and over again about the bloody Duchess of Orleans visiting Torquay in 1857 whilst little was said about contemporary developments affecting the heath, welfare, education or economic prospects of the local population.
To criticise Bill Luscombe unduly would be unfair. After all, he was the bloke who showed an interest in the club’s history and put pen to paper. Quite understandably, once he made that effort, others saw him as the “Oracle" or the ”History Man.” If Bill said it had happened, it must have done. The only snag was that, by modern day standards, he wasn’t a particularly good historian and unintentionally – and no doubt in a wholly well-meaning manner – he managed to lead a few people up the garden path. Almost certainly that was due to him relying on memories as opposed to archives.

So this is where I must declare respect for the work undertaken by Jon Gibbes and John Lovis over the years. Although I’m always ready to question material - and seek new explanations – I pretty much follow the works of others when presenting my “facts”. In this way I may occasionally be guilty of parroting the mistakes of others. But, with Jon and John, we have to remember they are the people who've sought out the original material needed to tell us the stories we all find so fascinating. All power to them in that respect.

Dave, meanwhile, could easily be on to something when he suggests it’s possible the founding meetings of the Torquay and District League (as the SDL was originally known) may have taken place in 1902. That, in the absence of any evidence in front of me, appears entirely feasible. But, if that’s the case, should we use the 1902 founding date?

Well, in my opinion, if we were talking about an association – let’s call it the South Devon Football Association – set up to govern football in the area, it would be appropriate to date its foundation as of the first meeting. The same can be said of a football club. But, if we’re talking about a competition, it’s more normal to date its formation from the start of play. So, if the T&DL started playing in the autumn 1903, I’d go with 1903 as its date of formation.

Come what may, it would be interesting to learn more of the league’s history. Not just who won what when, but also about its great teams and players and its relative strength over the years. For example, when was it at its very strongest? Here I’m reliant on our centenary history again and the work done by the likes of Jon. His press cutting in this thread shows it was Torquay United Reserves who were amongst the founders of the T&DL (and not the first team who were playing in the East Devon League at the time). The firsts – according to the book – only switched to the T&DL when the EDL went through a rocky spell in 1907. Then – once the Ellacombe merger went ahead in 1910 – the ambitious new Torquay Town quickly headed off in the direction of the Plymouth and District League.

Which begs the question of the relative strength (and reputation) over the years of the SDL compared to its Plymouth and Exeter counterparts. I get the impression it was usually in the shadow of those leagues and a few clubs from its "natural" catchment area – Dartmouth, Brixham United and Dawlish amongst them – sometimes opted to play in those leagues in preference. But – even if the SDL was the weakest of the three – there must have been times when it was an incredibly strong league by modern standards. This would have been the case because, until the late 1940s, there were no Devon clubs playing at any level between the district leagues and the Football League. Nor, at that time, could you imagine South Devon-based players nipping out-of-county for their football. Surely in those days players, who would now be appearing at every level from the Conference to the South West Peninsula, would have been doing their stuff either for Torquay United Reserves or in the SDL? This indicates a very high standard at the top end of local football.

This state of affairs may have continued until the 1960s when Newton Abbot Spurs made a real stab at the South Western League and local players started to appear for Bideford, Barnstaple and other Western League clubs. Then, once Dawlish and Tiverton joined the Western League in the 1970s (to be followed by other Devon clubs), there would have been a further adverse effect on the quality of district football. Now, since the formation of the Devon League in the early 1990s (and the subsequent establishment of the SWPL), we’ve had up to ten to a dozen South Devon clubs operating at levels above the SDL. I guess this represents the SDL losing a fair chunk of its natural premier division over the years. Put alongside the possibility of the best local players appearing for decent semi-pro clubs throughout the South West and you develop a picture of a very different local football scene to fifty-odd years ago. So what was the SDL like in the 1950s and 1960s?

Ant just told me that a man who was very well know, Eddie lee had a great deal of the SDL history in his possession before he died. Ant will try and find out if he can what happened to it and where it might be now.

I think you are clutching at straws here Dave. If you look at any football league, you will see that it gives its foundation date as the year in which fixtures commenced. No league adds on an extra year using the argument that it took a year to set up - and you are only coming up with that argument to justify a date which is clearly wrong.

Luscombe refers to the league being in operation during 1902/03 when it absolutely certainly was not. Luscombe is useless with dates - we see that time and time again in his book.

People seem to claim that uncovering these details is far more difficult than it is - that everything is shrouded in mystery because it is so long ago and no records remain.

Local football was very well reported in the local newspapers of the time and these newspapers are all safely preserved. You only have to look and you will find.

The South Devon League WAS founded in 1903.

Jon I asked last night did it really matter if it was 1902 or 1903, now you know I like you but I have been thinking about this during the day and decided you really have not proved your case.

You see I fully agree that the season 1903/04 started under the new banner of the SDL(or what it was called back then) and the SDL knows that as well.

Your paper cutting simply states that the J.A Football will benefit by the formation of the SDL, it does not state when the SDL was founded and set up.

The only other thing you offer to back up your claims are that a man called "Luscombe" claimed it was 1902 and we was useless at dates as he got another one wrong concerning our club.

Did this Mr Luscombe add a year to his age as well ;D So what do you think happened, did the SDL some 50 or so years later after it was FOUNDED, ask how old it was because it did not know? I would find that a bit hard to believe.

It would know when the first season started under its banner, so why would it claim it was founded a year earlier, if it had not been. I still maintain it could be the simple case, it was all set up in 1902 and therefore was founded that year and took over running the league at the start of the next season 1903/04

On another note Ant is going to try and get his hands of the papers I talked about yesterday, if he is able to do that,would you be interested in cataloging it all so it could go up on the SDL website?.