Post by Dave on Nov 13, 2009 18:54:35 GMT
There are so many things that really please me about how the TFF has developed from its very first days. Back then it was a very basic looking board, but over time I have learned who to use codes etc and have always looked at what could be improved.
I have been lucky to have been given some great ideas by fellow members and as it is your forum, I will always try and incorporate any good ideas you may have.
I what we love is how things happen in our build up to our games and then what happens, let me explain. I put up the match thread and then maybe the next day, Timbo and others treat us to some great old programmes from past played games against the team we will be playing.
Those programmes contain many great article and stories and really are a great read. Then on the matchday we get some wonderful match reports form both home and away games. If it’s a home game I’m a very busy boy as I have to get home and write my match report. Then sort out the photos Darryl kindly sends the forum, after this I have to put up the TFF view from the forum pages.
It’s so complete and perfect as far as I’m concerned and it happens because of the effort that you all put in, so a big thank you from me.
Its great to get a brand new winner this week and what great posts he has treated us too and they sure stirred up some great debate. I marvel at times what some people are able to remember from so long ago and this week’s winner has shown his brain is in super condition.
This week’s winner is Stewart a big well done
A post made by Stewart this week
I've only just come across this thread and the lengthy posts by Barton and Jon have got me thinking and remembering and have completely distracted me while trying to watch Numbers and then the X Factor this evening.
Having first attended Plainmoor in October 1954 (a 4-1 win against Southend United), I hope I can throw a small ray of light on your hopes of finding out how the tactics of the team evolved in the 1950s and 60s under Eric Webber.
The simple truth, from all my memories of long ago, is that they did not so much evolve as stumble through a period when all the manager did was pick the team and let the players sort out the tactics and formations for themselves.
Certainly in 1954 we had dual 'stoppers' at the back in Webber himself and Griff Norman, which in retrospect was surprising as everywhere else was probably entrenched in the old 3-2-5. In midfield, Dennis Lewis was the ball-winner and Don Mills the playmaker in what younger supporters would recognise as the Alex Russell role, although Mills was superior in every aspect you can think of. So at the time I first set foot in the ground the formation was definitely 4-2-4.
We had two traditional wingers in Ron Shaw and Jack Smith, with Harold Dobbie the old-fashioned, knock-taking centre-forward and Sam Collins the archetypal, goal poaching inside-forward, who relied so much on Dobbie and later Ted Calland to give him the space he needed to score so many goals. These partnerships were the equivalent of the Bobby Smith/Jimmy Greaves duo at Tottenham a few years later.
Collins was an ace penalty taker and I would be very surprised, although I don't know, if he ever missed one. He was enormously popular with the crowd, as indeed were all the players, as they were all local heroes and often caught the same trains as the fans. And if ever a true cult hero existed at the club, it would have been the left-back, Harry Smith, whose only desire in any game appeared to be belting the ball over the stand. But he was a hard, no-nonsense player and the fans loved him.
When Eric Webber retired from playing, Griff Norman moved from No.6 to No.5 and was mostly partnered by Jimmy James who was more of a defensive wing-half. So for the next two seasons it was back to 3-3-4.
Following the divisional restructure in 1958, Webber clearly decided that some of the old guard had had their day, and new faces included Bettany, G Northcott, Bond, Cox, Baxter, T Northcott and Pym. George Northcott played alone in the centre of defence, and at No.6 were successively Nobby Clarke, Eric Johnson and most notably Colin Rawson, none of whom could justify the modern description of central defender, but were more like 'holding players'. So once again it was virtually 3-3-4.
During the following 3 seasons or so, Don Mills was frequently absent through injury and was usually replaced by Graham Bond, and in this scenario the versatility of Geoff Cox was most evident.
When Mills played, Cox would be seen as a partner to Tom Northcott, in the 'in the hole' role of modern times. When Bond played, Cox would drop deeper to partner first Colin Bettany and then David Hancock as attacking wing-halves. The influence that Geoff Cox had on the teams of the early 60s should never be underestimated.
Ray Spencer and David Hancock were also paired in 'midfield' during this period, but Colin Bettany and then Alan Smith still patrolled the centre of the defence unaided until the arrival of John Benson as sweeper and organiser in 1964, and his presence at the back was priceless for both Eric Webber and later Frank O'Farrell.
And yet, remarkably, looking back from these days when workrate is at a premium, there were still only two, Cox and Trevor Wolstenholme, in midfield, because Alan Smith and George Allen were by no stretch of the imagination overlapping full-backs, and Ernie Pym and Micky Somers certainly were not noted for 'tracking back' as wingers. This was 4-2-4 in its heyday and it was great to watch.
My last season of living in Devon was 1967/68, by which time Frank O'Farrell had brought in John Bond, Jimmy Dunne and John Smith, among others. The formation was still 4-2-4, with Doug Clarke, Ron Barnes, Robin Stubbs and Tony Scott making up the front four and Ken Brown joining Benson at the back.
My theory on the John Bond in a no.10 shirt, by the way, is that he was moved into central midfield to make way for the arrival of Bill Kitchener at left-back. When Eric Burgess fell out of favour later that season, Bond moved back to right-back. I certainly don't remember him ever playing as a forward.
The first signs of 4-4-2 appeared around this time, however, as the wingers were clearly being required to drop back to help out the full-backs, and I have always believed that it was his growing isolation at the point of attack, compared to the days when he was so well supported by Tom Northcott and Reg Jenkins, that finally persuaded Robin Stubbs that it was time to move on.
The last time I saw him play was at Orient one evening in 1969, and he looked a pale and disillusioned shadow of his former self.
Incidentally, Barton, get on and read that book by Jonathan Wilson as soon as you can. It answered so many queries and doubts I had had over the years and is easily the best of its kind I have ever read.
I have been lucky to have been given some great ideas by fellow members and as it is your forum, I will always try and incorporate any good ideas you may have.
I what we love is how things happen in our build up to our games and then what happens, let me explain. I put up the match thread and then maybe the next day, Timbo and others treat us to some great old programmes from past played games against the team we will be playing.
Those programmes contain many great article and stories and really are a great read. Then on the matchday we get some wonderful match reports form both home and away games. If it’s a home game I’m a very busy boy as I have to get home and write my match report. Then sort out the photos Darryl kindly sends the forum, after this I have to put up the TFF view from the forum pages.
It’s so complete and perfect as far as I’m concerned and it happens because of the effort that you all put in, so a big thank you from me.
Its great to get a brand new winner this week and what great posts he has treated us too and they sure stirred up some great debate. I marvel at times what some people are able to remember from so long ago and this week’s winner has shown his brain is in super condition.
This week’s winner is Stewart a big well done
A post made by Stewart this week
I've only just come across this thread and the lengthy posts by Barton and Jon have got me thinking and remembering and have completely distracted me while trying to watch Numbers and then the X Factor this evening.
Having first attended Plainmoor in October 1954 (a 4-1 win against Southend United), I hope I can throw a small ray of light on your hopes of finding out how the tactics of the team evolved in the 1950s and 60s under Eric Webber.
The simple truth, from all my memories of long ago, is that they did not so much evolve as stumble through a period when all the manager did was pick the team and let the players sort out the tactics and formations for themselves.
Certainly in 1954 we had dual 'stoppers' at the back in Webber himself and Griff Norman, which in retrospect was surprising as everywhere else was probably entrenched in the old 3-2-5. In midfield, Dennis Lewis was the ball-winner and Don Mills the playmaker in what younger supporters would recognise as the Alex Russell role, although Mills was superior in every aspect you can think of. So at the time I first set foot in the ground the formation was definitely 4-2-4.
We had two traditional wingers in Ron Shaw and Jack Smith, with Harold Dobbie the old-fashioned, knock-taking centre-forward and Sam Collins the archetypal, goal poaching inside-forward, who relied so much on Dobbie and later Ted Calland to give him the space he needed to score so many goals. These partnerships were the equivalent of the Bobby Smith/Jimmy Greaves duo at Tottenham a few years later.
Collins was an ace penalty taker and I would be very surprised, although I don't know, if he ever missed one. He was enormously popular with the crowd, as indeed were all the players, as they were all local heroes and often caught the same trains as the fans. And if ever a true cult hero existed at the club, it would have been the left-back, Harry Smith, whose only desire in any game appeared to be belting the ball over the stand. But he was a hard, no-nonsense player and the fans loved him.
When Eric Webber retired from playing, Griff Norman moved from No.6 to No.5 and was mostly partnered by Jimmy James who was more of a defensive wing-half. So for the next two seasons it was back to 3-3-4.
Following the divisional restructure in 1958, Webber clearly decided that some of the old guard had had their day, and new faces included Bettany, G Northcott, Bond, Cox, Baxter, T Northcott and Pym. George Northcott played alone in the centre of defence, and at No.6 were successively Nobby Clarke, Eric Johnson and most notably Colin Rawson, none of whom could justify the modern description of central defender, but were more like 'holding players'. So once again it was virtually 3-3-4.
During the following 3 seasons or so, Don Mills was frequently absent through injury and was usually replaced by Graham Bond, and in this scenario the versatility of Geoff Cox was most evident.
When Mills played, Cox would be seen as a partner to Tom Northcott, in the 'in the hole' role of modern times. When Bond played, Cox would drop deeper to partner first Colin Bettany and then David Hancock as attacking wing-halves. The influence that Geoff Cox had on the teams of the early 60s should never be underestimated.
Ray Spencer and David Hancock were also paired in 'midfield' during this period, but Colin Bettany and then Alan Smith still patrolled the centre of the defence unaided until the arrival of John Benson as sweeper and organiser in 1964, and his presence at the back was priceless for both Eric Webber and later Frank O'Farrell.
And yet, remarkably, looking back from these days when workrate is at a premium, there were still only two, Cox and Trevor Wolstenholme, in midfield, because Alan Smith and George Allen were by no stretch of the imagination overlapping full-backs, and Ernie Pym and Micky Somers certainly were not noted for 'tracking back' as wingers. This was 4-2-4 in its heyday and it was great to watch.
My last season of living in Devon was 1967/68, by which time Frank O'Farrell had brought in John Bond, Jimmy Dunne and John Smith, among others. The formation was still 4-2-4, with Doug Clarke, Ron Barnes, Robin Stubbs and Tony Scott making up the front four and Ken Brown joining Benson at the back.
My theory on the John Bond in a no.10 shirt, by the way, is that he was moved into central midfield to make way for the arrival of Bill Kitchener at left-back. When Eric Burgess fell out of favour later that season, Bond moved back to right-back. I certainly don't remember him ever playing as a forward.
The first signs of 4-4-2 appeared around this time, however, as the wingers were clearly being required to drop back to help out the full-backs, and I have always believed that it was his growing isolation at the point of attack, compared to the days when he was so well supported by Tom Northcott and Reg Jenkins, that finally persuaded Robin Stubbs that it was time to move on.
The last time I saw him play was at Orient one evening in 1969, and he looked a pale and disillusioned shadow of his former self.
Incidentally, Barton, get on and read that book by Jonathan Wilson as soon as you can. It answered so many queries and doubts I had had over the years and is easily the best of its kind I have ever read.