Dave
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Posts: 13,081
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Post by Dave on Jul 22, 2008 17:25:28 GMT
So what are you views on foreign players. please pick any two answers from the poll and please give your reasons.
Thanks Dave R
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AR10
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Torquay Fans Forum Manager
Posts: 238
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Post by AR10 on Jul 22, 2008 17:34:57 GMT
Being here makes our English players lift their game, I don't agree that there is no English talent coming through as every time we qualify for a major tournament the press & fans always believe we can win it, we just need a good manager to install the belief & confidence into the players. Plus English players are well over priced & hence why clubs go foreign.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 22, 2008 18:48:55 GMT
I voted limit it to four foreigners and I believe they do inhibit the development of home talent. Just like the road English cricket took a few years ago, I believe the time has now come to reduce the number of non English players employed over here. If that infringes the laws of employment then the club owners have to insist on a policy of only employing managers who will adhere to that policy through choice - and you aren't going to get it by having the likes of Scolari, Wenger and that joker from Liverpool who's name I can never remember (he looks like Vic Reeves) because at the top level (their first teams) they stick with what they know, hence the French influence at Arsenal and the Spanish look of Liverpool. But then remember that the "owners" of much of the Premier League (not the real one) are non English so what do they care. So the conclusion has to be that the family silver has been sold off and it will never be recovered thus relegating our future as an international power to no greater than Scotland or Sweden. Or can it? The opening of English eyes to the importance of teaching technique over physical prowess - admittedly through the influence of foreign players and coaches - means that now we have the established mind set to begin at the very early years and coach these attributes ourselves in the manner that suits best...............as Sir Trevor Brooking maintains. Just as we learned to utilise lightweight footwear and decent playing surfaces in the past, we can begin to teach kids from the very beginning to be two footed, to open their body so as to address the ball properly and to develop a decent eye to foot co-ordination. Giving them the correct size ball plus a smaller heavier one to discover and develop through their own experimentation without constantly being told "no, no, no - do it this way" is another confidence builder. Remember with little kids we're not there to show off how great a ball player Daddy is and when they're bigger we're not there to scream and shout at them as if we are managing a World Cup Final team! When I was a small kid, there was no coaching whatsoever and my first experience of playing football was on the clay waste at Decoy in ankle length grass with a full size football............no wonder we lapsed so far behind the more enlightened nations. The first coaching I ever received was when I was thirteen at school from a very decent St Lukes College student (Peter Searle) who played in the Isthmian League for Kingstonian at weekends. Of course that was about eight years too late, and that was the norm in those days. Later I was privileged to be coached at Newton Spurs and Plainmoor by the great Don Mills, assisted by Bobby Baxter, Geoff Cox and Dougie Clarke. Nowadays we have Football in the Community (which contrary to popular belief is not wholly financed by the parent pro' clubs) and even the most humble of local clubs have developed coaching schemes for the many age groups down from first team level. We have been given the knowledge by more enlightened foreigners, what we need now is a prolonged period of patience and dedication to imparting that knowledge onto the future generations. It was denied to us, but it should be the birth right of the kids of the future and if we do it properly and generously without selfishness or self interest then this country can at long last compete on an equal footing with technically gifted equals from other nations and cultures.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 22, 2008 19:10:31 GMT
I have to agree with Merse, that it should be four only again. The problem is all these EU employment laws, why should they have to apply to English football?
I would like to see the big clubs, all have nursery clubs, from the lower leagues, this will help to bring on more English born players etc. I do not think we will see the laws changed, well not for some time anyway, but maybe if enough people were to speak up, fans showed their feelings by not attending games in the Prem, maybe changes could be forced.
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Post by tufcwewillbeback on Jul 22, 2008 21:10:37 GMT
I voted that they help english players develop, though i dont think that that sums it up. I think six to a team would be a good limit. The best english players would have to, therefore, be given a chance in the EPL and the standard of football will be unlikely to decrease, as many of the foreign players in the EPL are no better than english alternatives who may be playing at championship level, for instance. For me, a six limit would ensure that the best foreign players(Ronaldo, Berbatov...) would still be able to come here while each game would still feature at least 10 english players(5 on each team). Therefore, the best english players would still have the chance to play at a high standard of football. If english players are unable to make it to the EPL with these foreign restriction's then they would not be able to play internationally anyway. This would also ensure that youth academies would concentrate more on developing english talent, as they would have to. I dont think that the influx of foreign players has been a huge issue in English football, though, as many say it has. In the 70's England failed to qualify for a single tournament with almost no foreign players in the top division, while in 3 of the last four tournament's we have made the quater final stage, going out twice on penalties (a lottery) and once to Brazil!! Really there is no evidence to suggest that the standard of English football has decresed. I dont buy into this being used as an excuse for us to fail to qualify for Euro 2008 as a number of factors contributed to this. Firstly, bad management, also some pretty atrocious luck with injuries for key matches, 2 very good teams (Russia and Croatia)..... there are plenty others you could come up with. England have always failed to qualify for the odd tournament (1984,94) so the recent failure cannot be pinned upon foreign players with any substantial evidence.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 22, 2008 21:55:25 GMT
I hope you don't mind me saying tufcwewillbeback , you are a young man with great knowledge and some great view points. I would also not blame the fact England did not qualify for Euro 2008, on the input of foreign players.
We should have been able to do it with the players that were available. You say you think that many of the foreign players may be no better than players in the Championship, if that is the case, how could there be an argument for the need of any of then to be here in the first place. That really is my point, just what do they bring to the English game.
You said you voted that they help English players develop, but if many are only up to the standards of the championship players, what can our players learn from them.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 23, 2008 3:02:02 GMT
I don't think that the influx of foreign players has been a huge issue in English football, though, as many say it has. In the 70's England failed to qualify for a single tournament with almost no foreign players in the top division, while in 3 of the last four tournament's we have made the quarter final stage, going out twice on penalties (a lottery) and once to Brazil!! Really there is no evidence to suggest that the standard of English football has decreased. Well I do think it has been a huge issue..............but not all bad. When the likes of Ardiles and Muhren broke the mould they showed us a level of technique that was in danger of being submerged in our domestic football through athleticism and "POMO"( position of maximum opportunity, or route one) football. With the opportunity to also train with these level of players, and Cantona too for that matter; the players and the coaches had the advantage of learning from someone more technically gifted than them whilst at the same time getting the opportunity to play alongside them. Contrary to recent belief, technically gifted British players used to populate the upper reaches of our game................even in my life time players such as George Eastham, Johnny Giles, Bobby Charlton, Martin Peters, Bobby Moore, George Best and Denis Law................I could go on and on, were genuine world class exponents of the pure skills of the game; but they were then sunk in a mediocrity of athleticism brought about by equally mediocre coaches and so called managers like Graham Taylor (surely the worst appointment ever made by the FA?) who gave us the least accomplished England squad we had ever seen. We are now light years behind the nations that had developed from being "nobodies" in terms of European football in the sixties, nations such as Denmark, a re-emergent France, Holland and Portugal to say nothing of the remarkable Croatia. Why is this? Because the enlightenment that should have come about in educating and preparing kids from as young as five years old just has not been given justice, has not been given importance and has not even existed in the form it does in the countries mentioned above. As I posted yesterday, if you ensure at the very first steps that a toddler uses BOTH feet until they do so subconsciously, opens their body to receive and play the ball correctly; and provide them with little footballs with which to have fun and evolve their OWN repertoire of tricks you will soon see the ones with ability begin to stand out even at that young age. I well remember the look of amazement at Liverton United when I brought a very rudimentary collection of Dutch footballers across to South Devon one Easter many years ago. Amazement at the very advanced level of pure control and comfort on the ball these lads displayed even coming from the same status of local football as the Liverton boys. They already knew where they were going to pass even before they got the ball, when they did get it they were perfectly balanced and prepared for it and could "ping" it off seemingly without effort. Why was this? Because they had complete mastery of the ball and they had this because they had been taught it almost as soon as they were old enough to walk and talk. English people are no different physically or genetically than anyone from any other competent footballing nations but they are educated and developed differently and THAT is the root problem. Enlightened clubs are now addressing this from the very bottom, what a shame then that the very biggest clubs are yet to maximise the opportunity for those developing English players to finish off their education and development by allowing them the opportunity to play alongside the very best of World talent whilst at the same time dispatching the rather mediocre collection of foreigners with which they "pad out" their first team squads.
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Post by tufcwewillbeback on Jul 23, 2008 7:11:28 GMT
I hope you don't mind me saying tufcwewillbeback , you are a young man with great knowledge and some great view points. I would also not blame the fact England did not qualify for Euro 2008, on the input of foreign players. We should have been able to do it with the players that were available. You say you think that many of the foreign players may be no better than players in the Championship, if that is the case, how could there be an argument for the need of any of then to be here in the first place. That really is my point, just what do they bring to the English game. You said you voted that they help English players develop, but if many are only up to the standards of the championship players, what can our players learn from them. It is the foreign players that are not offering as much (the "championship standard" ones that i think can be replaced. You are right to say that they dont really bring anything to the english game. Players like Tottenhams Kevin Price Boeteng, who was purchesed from Germany, are, no offence to him, pointless. If i'm right Spurs spent about 5 million on him and he has'nt really featured in the first team. If Spurs have 5 million to spend on a young decent midfielder they could have their pick of almost any english championship midfielder or one playing for a team in the bottom half of the EPL. I feel that if there are English alternatives available then they should be viewed favourably. Of course, the top foreign players, Ardilles, Klinsman, Henry, Ronaldo... should be welcomed here as they contribute to the development of our players. Personally, i just believe that a limit of 4 per team would be going to far, I think that if you say 6 per starting eleven then 5 would have to be English. This would encourage the top teams to develop English players from very young ages at a greater scale. Also each Epl team would probably need to have about 10 regular english first team players to make sure there would be 5 available for each game. I think some kind of restriction is important because more and more teams could go the way of Arsenal, who featured an average of less than one English player per game last season. Teams like Villa have shown that it is possible to do well with a group of young english players (Agbonlahor, A. Young, Carson) In my view, there are many young english players who are overlooked needlessly by average foreign one's, this, i think, is what has to change. Brian Clough was one of the greatest top flight managers in history, many of the best players he brought to Nottingham Forest he plucked out of non league football. Top flight sides rarely look at young non league players now even though it has produced players like Chris Waddle in the past. Wolves took Michael Kightley from Grays and he has been a top championship player, who could well make the EPL. Furthermore, players in league 1 and 2 are often good enough to play in the top division but not looked at, Alex Russell, for instance, would have been a decent player at whatever level he was playing at. It looks as though Paul Ince is going to bring his Mk dons captain to Blackburn, he is a player that would never have made the top division were it not for him being managed by someone who makes that move himself.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 23, 2008 16:24:18 GMT
While we may not agree on the numbers, I think four, while you think 6, we do agree on so many other points you make. It is so true that many English players never reach the hight, they might and simply because, there is no room at the top, that is full of foreign players.
I must confess I enjoy watching players like,Ronaldo and one I know you will love Berbatov, playing football. In fact sorry as you will be as a Spurs fan, I really would love to see him at Man U.
We agree there are many foreign players here, who are no better than English players, so I still really don't know why, clubs bring these players here. it can't be about wages, or transfer fees? can it. Maybe the bog English stars ask for to much, but surly a Championship player, moving say to Villa, would not be able to demand big wages.
So four only for me, clubs having to look to leagues below, for the up and coming stars of tomorrow and then looking forward to a better and stronger England side.
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rolf
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Post by rolf on Jul 25, 2008 10:23:06 GMT
As an European, loving the English football and it's traditions, i say there are too many foreign players, since they came over they introduced : diving, asking for cards & the respect for the ref is totally gone (Di Canio pushing ref Paul Alcock). but as in most things : there are good and bad things in everything, i just think the balance in foreign players is that they bring more bad than good (Dave, Spell Check is perfect )
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Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
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Post by Dave on Jul 25, 2008 10:32:26 GMT
As A Dutchman mate, your English is often better then mine ;D ;D Anyway a warm welcome to you on the forum, great to have Amsterdam's no1 TUFC fan as a member
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