Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 21:21:34 GMT
I decided a week or two ago that Mike Green was going to be the next in this series. It was really only a matter of time before I posted a few words but, on quite another thread, Budleigh beat me to it with these words which are worth quoting in full:
It's funny how Mike Green's late seventies/early eighties team didn't exactly set the world alight but is thought of with such affection. Cooper and Les up front have become part of United folklore; John Turner in goal; Jimmy Dunne who took no prisoners; Ian Twitchin who epitomised true loyalty; Bruce Rioch coming in and raising the bar, and expectations; Vince O'Keefe taking over, but never quite matching, Turner's position; Tony brown adding a bit of class and glamour; all alongside a cast of real battlers. This was a team that continued to evolve for a few more seasons until the 'dark days'.
And maybe that's the reason we all have this real feeling of affection for that team because after it started to disband we hit rock bottom and quite possibly for the first time in the history of Torquay United the innocence was lost. No longer was it a case of coming along to Plainmoor and hoping to see a good, entertaining game and taking it as that, an afternoon’s entertainment, and not part of a bigger picture. Maybe over the season we could flirt with promotion, get the heart beating a little faster, but if not, well it wasn't the end of the world.
Suddenly it dawned on everyone that this wasn't the way of the football world any longer, that there were 'darker' aspects to it all. These bad times came and brought with them a new reality, for two years we hit rock bottom and then in that third year with automatic relegation now in place…. Well, we all know what happened then? Survival at the death.
Goalkeepers such as Fry, Fowler & Smeulders had replaced Turner and O'Keefe; Rioch and Brown, although getting on in years, had given their all, now Tony Currie was the new 'star man'.. no comparison. Although we managed to pull ourselves around and then had a period of relative success with the various Wembley trips, promotion and FA cup runs I really believe following Torquay United changed after that Mike Green team as these new realities set-in and maybe it all became a little more serious, the innocence gone.
That’s a pretty good start, isn’t it?
The first point is an important one as it emphasises how Mike Green’s teams are remembered with affection because of many of the personalities and the style in which they played. That interests me because I was aiming to start with that very question: how is Mike Green remembered? And, secondly, what is his historical significance? Did he, as you may care to deduce from Budleigh's words, provide a rare glimpse of something better (along with Bruce Rioch perhaps?) during those generally gloomy days from 1972 to 1987?
I’ve a strange theory of my own which maintains Mike Green is either fondly remembered or barely remembered. The latter part of this is odd given he was manager for over four years (with or without Frank O’Farrell’s help) which makes him one of our longest-serving managers. Indeed, I recently asked another supporter – of my own age – to name the manager (since Eric Webber) who has had the longest single-spell at the helm (which excludes, of course, the aggregate of Frank O’Farrell’s three periods). He must have come up with every name save Mike Green, 4 years 2 months in the job and – according to Wikipedia – in charge for 201 games.
Maybe this is a reflection on what was happening to my friend during those years between 1977 and 1981. Or, perhaps, for those of us born in the 1950s – and lucky enough to have wallowed in the good times of the 1960s – this may have been the time when some of us lapsed and began to follow other pathways. For us, Mike Green was post-teenage years and in the gap before some of our generation started to get back into being fans again. But, as Budleigh intimates, for those who were slightly younger this was a pretty decent time to be a Torquay supporter.
Mike Green was actually the first Torquay United manager I could remember as a player, most notably in promotion-winning teams at Bristol Rovers and Argyle. Nor was he much older than myself having been born in 1946. This placed him in a totally different generation to Eric Webber (born 1919), Frank O’Farrell (1927), Allan Brown (1926), Jack Edwards (1929) and even Malcolm Musgrove (1933). He would also have been our first player-manager since Eric Webber in 1951.
A new broom perhaps? And one which had the help of John Rudge, the Greatest Manager We Never Had. The Centenary History certainly makes a point of discussing the process of change:
"The summer of 1977 really saw the Green Revolution take shape. The new manager had inherited too many players who were either too old, or not good enough, and he rapidly rebult the team to such an extent that a mere eighteen months later only three of the original eighteen players remained." Note the expression: the Green Revolution. Was it really that?
The bare bones of Mike Green’s time at the club:
1976/77 (arrived in March 1977): 16th
1977/78 (first full season): 9th
1978/79: 11th
1979/80: 9th
1980/81: 17th
That’s not a desperately bad record although, of course, it doesn’t get better towards the end. Looking back it didn’t seem too exciting at the time because – in those pre play-off times – 9th place was decidedly mid-table and miles off promotion contention. But what if there had been play-offs in those days? Might the dynamics have been different so that one of Mike Green’s teams may have made it to 7th place and possible promotion? If so, history may have been rather different...
But that's conjecture and, for now, Jon sums things up nicely in making a wider point elsewhere:
I see quite a bit of Leroy in Don O – both the good bits and the bad bits. He did a brilliant job for a few years, but by the time it was time for him to go it really was time for him to go. Merse said that being a lower league manager can be like surfing the waves and deciding when is the time to jump off one and onto another. Don O should have jumped off our wave part way through the 1994/95 season, just as Leroy should have done part way through 2004/05 and Mike Green should have part way through 1979/80. It’s rare for a TUFC manager to jump off at the right time. Hodges did in 98, but he picked the wrong wave to jump onto.
There's a lot in that statement that others might like to develop, not just about Mike Green but for the whole history of Plainmoor managers. As for myself, I was toing and froing during the Mike Green years spending time in Sheffield, London, Sussex, Nottingham and Kent. My memories are rather fragmented and, for much of the time, I had “better” football to watch and a career to discover and develop. But I did spend the winter of 1979/80 in Torbay and saw every game at Plainmoor that season. I fully take Jon’s point about that being the time when Mike Green could have left on a high and - who knows? - taken a manager’s position at another club. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only supporter to lazily say things were never quite the same again after that marvellous New Year’s Day 1980 win at Bournemouth. On that day you wouldn’t have guessed Mike’s future lay as a sub-postmaster. Or did those closer to him see things differently?
Your memories and thoughts please.....
And maybe that's the reason we all have this real feeling of affection for that team because after it started to disband we hit rock bottom and quite possibly for the first time in the history of Torquay United the innocence was lost. No longer was it a case of coming along to Plainmoor and hoping to see a good, entertaining game and taking it as that, an afternoon’s entertainment, and not part of a bigger picture. Maybe over the season we could flirt with promotion, get the heart beating a little faster, but if not, well it wasn't the end of the world.
Suddenly it dawned on everyone that this wasn't the way of the football world any longer, that there were 'darker' aspects to it all. These bad times came and brought with them a new reality, for two years we hit rock bottom and then in that third year with automatic relegation now in place…. Well, we all know what happened then? Survival at the death.
Goalkeepers such as Fry, Fowler & Smeulders had replaced Turner and O'Keefe; Rioch and Brown, although getting on in years, had given their all, now Tony Currie was the new 'star man'.. no comparison. Although we managed to pull ourselves around and then had a period of relative success with the various Wembley trips, promotion and FA cup runs I really believe following Torquay United changed after that Mike Green team as these new realities set-in and maybe it all became a little more serious, the innocence gone.
That’s a pretty good start, isn’t it?
The first point is an important one as it emphasises how Mike Green’s teams are remembered with affection because of many of the personalities and the style in which they played. That interests me because I was aiming to start with that very question: how is Mike Green remembered? And, secondly, what is his historical significance? Did he, as you may care to deduce from Budleigh's words, provide a rare glimpse of something better (along with Bruce Rioch perhaps?) during those generally gloomy days from 1972 to 1987?
I’ve a strange theory of my own which maintains Mike Green is either fondly remembered or barely remembered. The latter part of this is odd given he was manager for over four years (with or without Frank O’Farrell’s help) which makes him one of our longest-serving managers. Indeed, I recently asked another supporter – of my own age – to name the manager (since Eric Webber) who has had the longest single-spell at the helm (which excludes, of course, the aggregate of Frank O’Farrell’s three periods). He must have come up with every name save Mike Green, 4 years 2 months in the job and – according to Wikipedia – in charge for 201 games.
Maybe this is a reflection on what was happening to my friend during those years between 1977 and 1981. Or, perhaps, for those of us born in the 1950s – and lucky enough to have wallowed in the good times of the 1960s – this may have been the time when some of us lapsed and began to follow other pathways. For us, Mike Green was post-teenage years and in the gap before some of our generation started to get back into being fans again. But, as Budleigh intimates, for those who were slightly younger this was a pretty decent time to be a Torquay supporter.
Mike Green was actually the first Torquay United manager I could remember as a player, most notably in promotion-winning teams at Bristol Rovers and Argyle. Nor was he much older than myself having been born in 1946. This placed him in a totally different generation to Eric Webber (born 1919), Frank O’Farrell (1927), Allan Brown (1926), Jack Edwards (1929) and even Malcolm Musgrove (1933). He would also have been our first player-manager since Eric Webber in 1951.
A new broom perhaps? And one which had the help of John Rudge, the Greatest Manager We Never Had. The Centenary History certainly makes a point of discussing the process of change:
"The summer of 1977 really saw the Green Revolution take shape. The new manager had inherited too many players who were either too old, or not good enough, and he rapidly rebult the team to such an extent that a mere eighteen months later only three of the original eighteen players remained." Note the expression: the Green Revolution. Was it really that?
The bare bones of Mike Green’s time at the club:
1976/77 (arrived in March 1977): 16th
1977/78 (first full season): 9th
1978/79: 11th
1979/80: 9th
1980/81: 17th
That’s not a desperately bad record although, of course, it doesn’t get better towards the end. Looking back it didn’t seem too exciting at the time because – in those pre play-off times – 9th place was decidedly mid-table and miles off promotion contention. But what if there had been play-offs in those days? Might the dynamics have been different so that one of Mike Green’s teams may have made it to 7th place and possible promotion? If so, history may have been rather different...
But that's conjecture and, for now, Jon sums things up nicely in making a wider point elsewhere:
There's a lot in that statement that others might like to develop, not just about Mike Green but for the whole history of Plainmoor managers. As for myself, I was toing and froing during the Mike Green years spending time in Sheffield, London, Sussex, Nottingham and Kent. My memories are rather fragmented and, for much of the time, I had “better” football to watch and a career to discover and develop. But I did spend the winter of 1979/80 in Torbay and saw every game at Plainmoor that season. I fully take Jon’s point about that being the time when Mike Green could have left on a high and - who knows? - taken a manager’s position at another club. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only supporter to lazily say things were never quite the same again after that marvellous New Year’s Day 1980 win at Bournemouth. On that day you wouldn’t have guessed Mike’s future lay as a sub-postmaster. Or did those closer to him see things differently?
Your memories and thoughts please.....
Mike Green was the manager I knew best at Plainmoor during my time working for the club, he was a diligent, dedicated and highly principled man who gave his heart and sould to that job and left feeling let down, stabbed in the back and vowing never to put himself in such a position of vulnerability again. Indeed, he neither sought nor accepted another managerial appointment although he was offered some, and eventually set up his own business.
