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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 19:57:45 GMT
To complete the trilogy of mid-1990s managers – in reverse sequence – we now turn to Don O’Riordan. Later, after a few detours, we’ll be returning to that decade to consider the members of – as Jon puts it – the Big Centre Halves Union: Impey, Saunders and Compton (plus, perhaps, Roy McFarland, an altogether classier centre-back).
Before we reach that point, the next few managers in this series will be an eclectic bunch drawn from various eras (there’s more than enough to choose from, isn’t there?). Rest assured Eric Webber will be featured relatively soon but I’m not sure about tackling those who preceded him. I’ve only the bare bones of their careers and – I imagine – there’s very few on this board with a personal recall of the pre-1951 era. However, should the AJP Taylor of Torquay United have sufficient material we can always reconsider. As for – since you ask - Leroy and Frank (names which often adorn these pages) there are no immediate plans considering how often we have cause to debate their time at the club.
So, for now, Quiet Flows the Don….
Don O’Riordan – formerly with Derby, Tulsa Roughnecks, PNE, Carlisle, Middlesbrough, Grimsby and Notts County – came to Plainmoor as a player under Neil Warnock in early 1993. He made his debut around the same time as goalkeeper Kevin Blackwell who has since managed Leeds, Luton and Sheffield United.
My memory says O’Riordan was Warnock’s nominated successor after the latter’s short spell at the club. I sense Don’s appointment was pretty much at the expense of Paul Compton who Warnock had been brought in to “assist”. Does anybody have any insight into this and whether Compo – by then reappointed as Youth Development Officer – still harboured ambitions towards the “top job?”
Either way, Don O’Riordan was in charge from the start of the 1993/94 season until after the infamous Scunthorpe match in October 1995. Two-and-a-bit seasons during which we finished 6th and 13th in what had become Division 3 (the current League 2). It started with a Byng at Walsall and reached the heights in that first leg against Preston but was never quite the same thereafter. For me, the memories are of two games in particular; the question is “what went wrong?”
To those two games I’ll add a third: the one at Carlisle (under Warnock) where we won to ensure we stayed in the League. Look at the line-ups and decide the extent to which they tell the story of Don O’s time at Plainmoor:
v Carlisle, 1 May 1993 (won 1-0): Blackwell, Barrow, Kelly, O’Riordan, Moore, Chapman, Trollope, Curran, Muir, Myers, Darby (sub: Foster).
v Preston North End, 15 May 1994 (won 2-0): Bayes, Hodges, Goodridge, Kelly, Moore, Curran, Trollope, Buckle, Darby, Sale, Okorie (subs: Hathaway, Foster).
v Scunthorpe, 28 October 1995 (lost 1-8): Bayes, Curran, Kelly, O’Riordan, Gore, Barrow, Jack, Coughlin, Partridge, Hawthorne, Ndah (subs: Hathaway, Stamps, Laight).
The problem with line-ups is they are only ever snapshots. Injuries, suspensions and exclusion (for whatever reason) must all be considered. In these cases, for example, you’d have ordinarily expected Mark Sale to have played at Carlisle whilst Don O’Riordan himself appeared in the second leg at Deepdale. But, nonetheless, weigh those teams up: a sign of a rapid turnover of players, a surprising level of stability or, merely, straightforward comings and goings at a small club? Another poser: is that last line-up markedly weaker than the others?
Jon recently asked a question: what might Don O’Riordan have achieved with the money made available to Eddie May? That’s a fascinating one in light of United being very much a “selling club” at the time. The Centenary History – ever to hand – records these major sales during O’Riordan’s time: Chris Myers (£90,000); Mark Sale (£20,000); Adrian Foster (£60,000); Paul Trollope (£100,000); Greg Goodridge (£100,000); Darren Moore (£65,000).
This backcloth of sales forms a part of my generally sympathetic memory of Don O’Riordan. I always saw him as a good man working pretty much alone against the maelstrom of Mike Bateson’s cost-cutting regime. Is this a view others share? Or am I being kind towards a manager who maybe, as a result of his own shortcomings, couldn’t sustain his early success? I’m sure there will be other opinions and Jon’s musing – of how Don O’ didn’t draw sufficiently on the experience and knowhow of Kevin Hodges – is one to throw into the pot.
You may also like to ponder that Don O’Riordan didn’t manage another Football League club after leaving Plainmoor. At the start of the season after the Preston defeat, Torquay United went on tour to Don’s old stomping ground and played a friendly at Cherry Orchard, his boyhood club. That evening, as he proudly led his Football League team into the club house in that pretty beat-up corner of Dublin, you’d have put money on O’Riordan being a reasonably successful, long-term Football League manager. Why didn’t that happen? Bad luck, his choice or what? But, look him up, and you’ll see that O’Riordan has remained in the game managing various Irish clubs and coaching at Sheffield United and Chengdu Blades, their associated club in China.
On a final note, Don O’ is one of a number of our managers who managed no other Football League club than Torquay United. Some stayed in the game quite successfully; others disappeared into other walks of life. How many of these one-club managers can you name?
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Post by okeygull on Sept 4, 2009 21:22:59 GMT
I can always remember O'Riordan scoring from one yard in from of jubilant gulls fans in the 89th minute at St James Park. ;  Going to wrack my brains over these one club managers now. |
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Post by capitalgull on Sept 4, 2009 21:43:44 GMT
Lubos Kubik must be one of them, albeit in very sad circumstances for him and the rest of us.
Did Mike Green ever manage anyone apart from us? I recall him turning down Bristol Rovers once, but did he go anywhere else between leaving us and becoming a postmaster??
Wes Saunders as well - with his many walks of life after football management.
Paul Compton only managed outside the Football League with Weymouth, all his other league jobs were as a youth coach or developmental manager.
Ivan Golac - no other Football League teams, just abroad and Scotland with Dundee United.
John Impey - dropped into local football.
Stuart Morgan I think as well - his only other league management was as a coach at Bournemouth. Went back to Weymouth
John Sims - the 33-day manager....disappeared into life as a publican and into local football.
Going further back, before my time, Eric Webber only managed Poole Town other than us, and was again a publican.
Bob John, way before my time!
Alf Steward, because of the intervention of WWII.
And (hopefully) finally Percy Mackrill...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2009 7:31:20 GMT
Great stuff, capital, on the one-club managers. I think there's at least one more...
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Sept 5, 2009 12:16:50 GMT
Great stuff, capital, on the one-club managers. I think there's at least one more... Malcolm Musgrove. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2009 22:00:57 GMT
Malcolm Musgrove - that's the man.
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Post by Jon on Sept 11, 2009 18:16:20 GMT
The first point I would make about Don O is that he was a PLAYER-MANAGER, and what a player he was! He always seemed to find space, always seemed to have time on the ball and could hit long passes Hoddle-style rather than aimless long balls. He was the kind of player you would build a team around. Warnock built the Notts County side that won its way to the top flight around him, and it was no surprise that Don O set about building a team around himself. He set himself up in a sort of “Beckenbauer libero” role from where he directed proceedings. The team played a kind of direct style – but certainly not an ugly style. The style totally revolved around Don O. In my time as a TUFC fan, I can only really think of Alex Russell as such a key individual influence on the way TUFC played. The trouble is that such players are not easily replaced.
Don O was 36 when he became manager of TUFC and 38 when his last season in charge kicked off. Both Kevin Hodges and Paul Buckle were 36 when appointed manager of TUFC – and both quite clearly decided to concentrate on playing. You only have to read Chris Hargreaves’ blog to get an idea of how tough it is to drag your body through a full season of pro football when you get into your mid to late 30s. To do that AND have the team revolving around you AND manage the team is putting yourself under intolerable pressure. It worked like a dream in the first season, the cracks started to show just a little in the second and the wheels came flying off in the third.
Does anyone remember a strange incident with a boot early in season three? I think an opponent’s boot came off in a challenge and he milked the situation to waste time. Don O, who had always seemed to me quite a calm and placid man, went totally apoplectic - throwing the boot off the pitch and looking at the linesman as if he was going to strangle him. I thought to myself then that this was a man piling too much stress on himself and that it would all end in tears.
I did mention on another thread that I got the impression that Don O didn’t use Kevin Hodges as backup as much as he could have. I don’t really know this – it is more of a feeling I picked up. Hodges is wearing a “staff top” and is noted as coach in the 1995 pre-season team photo – but I’m not sure whether he really had much influence. They never felt like a management team – it always felt like Don O was carrying the can solo. He gave the impression of someone who struggled to delegate, but heroically (and ultimately to his own detriment) soaked up pressure until it all got too much.
I suppose you can’t force together a management team. I can’t see any reason why O’Riordan and Hodges couldn’t work together as they seemed to have a lot in common, but maybe they just didn’t gel. When Hodges was given the manager’s job, he made a great play of sharing around the responsibility – sharing the plaudits and the pressure – in a management triumvirate, with Nelson and McCall given almost equal airtime. Was that a case of learning from Don’s mistake and trying to ensure he didn’t back himself into the same corner?
Interestingly, Kevin Blackwell played with Don O at TUFC at the end of the 1992/93 season – they were both Warnock protégés, so probably of the same management style. What if Don O had kept Blackwell as his goalie and assistant manager? Could they have been a REAL management team? Might the success that Blackwell has subsequently achieved in management have been achieved by O’Riordan and Blackwell? And if Blackwell had stayed, Bayes probably would not have arrived. If Bayes were not at the club, would we have traded a fit and healthy Buckle for a past-his-sell-by-date Coughlin and weakened our squad further? So many ifs…
Don O made the team tick when he played, but I got the impression that he never really found a style for the team to play when he couldn’t. The “Don O libero formation” was a variant on a back five, but without him should we play three centre backs and wing backs a la Knowles and Hodges, or two banks of four a la Buckle? Successful TUFC sides have tended to have had a formula that worked – ones which struggled to find a formula tended to struggle full stop.
The other key point with Don O is that his reign saw a remarkable financial performance. The family stand was created a year before he arrived – but still had to be paid for. The Popside / Bowls Club was done during his time at the club. Paying for all of that ground redevelopment, only partly grant-funded, was always going to give TUFC a massive problem. TUFC has always been, and probably always will be, a selling club. Any TUFC manager has to accept that. But Don O maybe suffered more than most as his play-off team was broken up. It is always a difficult balancing act when bills need paying, but maybe the summer of 95 saw the balance tipped too far. It has been said that we went from perming two from Darby, Foster, Sale and Okorie to perming two from Byng, Laight and Hancox – almost as much of a challenge as perming two from Laryea, Mooney and Pugh!
We did sign another striker that close season in Mark Hall – a Barbadian international! – from Southend and a few weeks into the season we lashed out a fairly sizeable fee for Jamie Ndah from Kingstonian. They were both poor signings – and a tight budget leaves little margin for error. I did question on the Eddie May thread what would have happened if Don O had been given the money subsequently given to Eddie May in relegation-threat-induced panic? I don’t know the answer. Certainly Paul Baker and Alex Watson looked exactly the kind of signings we needed in the summer of 95. I doubt if Don O had the budget to get them, but then again I’m not sure whether Don O would have signed them even if he could. Maybe he liked the idea of signing a Ndah rather than a Baker, much as Leroy liked the idea of signing a Connell rather than a Thorpe.
I see quite a bit of Leroy in Don O – both the good bits and the bad bits. He did a brilliant job for a few years, but by the time it was time for him to go it really was time for him to go. Merse said that being a lower league manager can be like surfing the waves and deciding when is the time to jump off one and onto another. Don O should have jumped off our wave part way through the 1994/95 season, just as Leroy should have done part way through 2004/05 and Mike Green should have part way through 1979/80. It’s rare for a TUFC manager to jump off at the right time. Hodges did in 98, but he picked the wrong wave to jump onto.
I think I am right in saying that Mike Bateson has actually said that with hindsight he wishes he had supported Don O more and given him more time as he did such a remarkable job for the club. That’s quite rare for MB to show retrospective self-doubt like that. He’s always tended to have a “what I did, I did for the best” and “Non, je ne regrette rien” attitude.Much as I liked Don, I think that there was no way back for him after Scunthorpe.
By the way, it was the evening of the Scunthorpe massacre that Cockington cricket pavilion burned down - a spectacularly bad day for Torquay.
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Post by Jon on Sept 11, 2009 18:48:17 GMT
By the way, police are still looking for Don O's assassin - the angry young man on the left of this photo. He looks vaguely familiar somehow. Come to think of it, so does one of his accomplices.  |
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Post by stuartB on Sept 11, 2009 20:33:47 GMT
Big Darren is definitely one of the familiar faces
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 8:56:56 GMT
Great stuff from Jon on this topic. The possibility of an O'Riordan/Blackwell partnership had crossed my mind as well but only when starting this thread with the benefit of many years hindsight. Jon also makes an excellent point regarding the ground improvements of that time - am I right in thinking the old popular side had been demolished by the time of the PNE play-off game in 1994? Was the new version then ready for 1994/95?
Now Jon mentions the "boot incident" I remember it myself. I also recall using the old amateur psychology and telling all and sundry we were witnessing a manager under stress. And again - of course, of course - we need to pick up on Jon's reminder that Don O' was a player-manager: the first 31 (of 42) league games in 1993/94 (before returning for the game at Deepdale); 24 (of 42) league games in the second season; 8 (of 14) in the third (including Scunthorpe). I imagine that, as the managerial stress intensified, the effects proved detrimental to the performances of a key player?
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Post by papalazarou on Sept 12, 2009 9:52:04 GMT
Mr Downs the pop-side was definatley demolished before the PNE play-off game. I remember me and my dad arriving late (can't remember why) and missing the early and only goal by Sale (has he recovered from his illness?)!
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Post by Budleigh on Sept 14, 2009 8:16:58 GMT
My godson and nephew James was born in 1988 to my rugby-loving sister and her husband. As such he only touched on football as an interest in his primary school years and reluctantly took Arsenal as his team 'as I have to support someone, everyone else does at school'.
I then spent the next two years of his early life trying to convince him that football really was a proper sport and that Torquay United, being his local side, were the team to support. It was hard work, against all odds, but finally in late October 1995, aged seven, I picked him up in the car and, with mounting excitement on his part, to Torquay we drove. The reality of actually watching a live game, in front of a proper crowd spurred his new enthusiasm and I spent the whole journey explaining who the players were, where we would stand, what he could and couldn't shout out. He even wore my yellow and blue woolen scarf.
As each goal against us hit the back of the net I squirmed a little more, not because of the performance, but because I could see his reaction. His face said it all, indeed at one point the disappointment writ across it matched those of the other attendees of the popular side and for a fleeting moment I thought he also felt our pain. How disillusioned I was! All he felt was acute sorrow that I should find this 'entertainment & enjoyment?'. I leant over as the sixth goal went in and tried to reassure him it wasn't always like this, he shrugged his shoulders in that 'what do I care?' attitude. I said nothing for goals seven and eight.
Driving back afterwards I tried to find something positive to reap from the proceedings so blurted out, 'well one thing, do you realise history was made today?'
'Yep', came his grinning reply, 'the first and last time I ever watch Torquay'!
This day has become part of folklore in our family, not for the match itself, but for the fact that we chose to lose in such a fashion on the one day I tried, after years of bullying, to introduce a new supporter...
(As a footnote, James went up to Oxford University to study and attended, with some friends, our 3-3 comeback game two seasons ago at the Kassam stadium. This ignited his interest somewhat, to the point that he now talks of Torquay games as 'we did this, we did that'... Then he visited Plainmoor for my stag-do last October (the famous Bananaman day) and after a view beers turned to me and exclaimed 'I think i'm cured!'.
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Post by yellowstew on Sept 14, 2009 9:58:39 GMT
I think the pop side was pulled down around late march the day after we drew 0-0 mid-week with Bury. This resulted in a massive cut in capacity and only 4500 got to see that 2-0 play-off win although there was a fence put up and a small enclosure created for that game.
strange really because after the damaging effects to the gates this did Mr Bateson repeated this in 2000 with the away end which led to the Northampton mess. Some people never learn!!!
Stew
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Sept 14, 2009 21:55:22 GMT
Quality post Budleighgull!
What a shame you picked that match rather than just a few weeks earlier when we put Northampton to the sword (although he arguably had a lucky escape when I look at the time, money, relationships and emotion I have wasted on the club over the years!!!)!
MY first games that I recall were as a five year old against Manchester City and Sheffield Wednesday back towards the start of the 80's. I was too young to understand properly but I can still vaguely remeber Eddie Large on the pitch (or was that a dream??!!).
It's funny that your first game can potentially shape your support (or not) of that club forever more. I know a guy who took his son to his first game and it was under O'Riordan. It was the unforgetable 4-3 win over Preston - possibly one of the most entertaining league game I've ever seen at Plainmoor. They still talk about it now!
With regards to the game that O'Riordan lost it and chucked that guy's boot, that was against Wigan about 6 or 7 league games in. We had only won a single game up to that point (and I believe that there was only one more win before a poor run culminated in the coup de grace administered by Scunthorpe).
That "dead man walking" feeling surrounding the manager of TUFC has very much been apparent in Dave Smith, John Impey, Paul Compton, Wes Saunders, Leroy, Ian Atkins (although under any other chairman he would have surely fared better with the squad he built) and Lubos Kubic.
There has only been one TUFC manager that I have seen turn around such a run that was deemed dismal by a reasonable section of the crowd - Paul Buckle. He did maintain a relatively cool exterior despite the heat being turned-up.
Probably everything I believe about TUFC managers and when they should have left has been summed-up excellently in the above post. I feel sad that it ended like that for Don O - a good player on his day, a seemingly very decent chap and I'm glad that he still carved-out a career in football after leaving us.
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Post by dono1993 on Nov 12, 2020 16:46:50 GMT
Hi guys, I was reading a few comments in the Former Managers section and it’s fascinating reading the opinions of you the fans. Everything was constructive and nobody was looking to slaughter me and I appreciate that.
On reflection it was my first job as a manager and it was a thrill and an honour to be offered the job and I had no hesitation accepting the role. The first and hardest thing I had to do on day one was to tell 10 players they weren’t part of my plans and Blacky unfortunately was first in line because of his wages and my budget. What you might have forgotten was Kev followed Neil to Huddersfield so I was delighted later to bring in Bayeso to replace Kev he was a dream pro with huge potential and delighted to sign a contract within the budget.
Hodgey and I worked well together but we were both playing which perhaps wasn’t ideal but I would pick Kev’s brain and knowledge of the game and delighted to see him get the job later.
The squad I put together in that first year was a great mix of hungry young kids and superb experienced players who would run through a brick wall to achieve success but I was young and naive in the management game of course but a huge part of my philosophy was to improve players individually and obviously also the team. Having been cheated out of a day out at Wembley at Preston the phone was ringing in Mike’s office and bids for players were coming in and we lost Darren,Troll, Darbs, Gregory and even originally Hally for decent money when we first arrived and the club was thrilled to be selling players which hadn’t happened like this for years. Later after I left another player Rodney was sold for huge money and none of these lads cost a penny.
In hindsight I wouldn’t have or shouldn’t have agreed to sell so many important players but people were saying I had the gift of recognising good players and making them better and I could sell some find new prospects and go again but I know now that’s not as easy as it sounds. Experience is a key factor for any manager and I didn’t have it but no regrets it was still highly enjoyable.
Regarding the Scunthorpe game I do have a regret because I was sick all week and should never have started the game and been a Taurean (stubborn) definitely should never have finished that game. I was so sick but didn’t want to jump ship that game. We trained quite well that week but being sick I observed more than I joined in and I went to see a reserve game and sat freezing watching and watched the 90 minutes when I should have stayed home but that was me I wanted the reserve lads to see me at their game.
Mike and I got on great during my time at Plainmoor we were a very good combination I felt and he genuinely felt bad when he fired me as we were friends away from the job and it was nice to hear that he was quoted that I was the only manager he’d regretted sacking. When Southampton lost 9-0 at home to Leicester last season everyone thought the manager would be sacked but the board kept faith and last weekend they were top of the EPL and fans who were calling for the manager’s head were thrilled he was allowed to stay in charge.
I loved my time in Devon and always keep an eye on the results and am thrilled to see Gary doing a great job and it would be brilliant to make it back to the English League ASAP.
Thanks to you the fans for my time at Torquay you guys were great and we won’t look back on what might have been but let’s hope the club gets back into the Football League this season.
Stay safe guys and hopefully some day in the future I can make it to a game in Plainmoor and say hi again.
Don
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