Dave
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Post by Dave on Apr 21, 2009 21:53:59 GMT
Its fine having 22 players in your squad, but you can only ever pick 11 to start anyone game, have a small squad and it picks itself each week and it will be down solely to them to get the results.
What is the point in having a large squad if you don't really use it, the question here is have we used the squad well and picked the right team for any particular game, or has some players who could have had an impact on results failed to get a decent chance to play their part in the season.
I do feel Green could have been used so much more, he showed in the Coventry game what he brings to the team, yet after being our best player in that game he has not got a look in.
Ellis is another one who has had no chance in the side, the odd games he got he was close to being the player of the match, yet we have stuck with Hodges at the back and sorry but he and Toddy together look weak at the back.
Thompson has played well in many games I saw him play in and yet he also has not got a chance for a long time now.Has our style of play been good enough? I know merse will want to have a go at me when I say, in my view we have played to much hoof ball at times and missed out the midfield players.
Could we have used Carayol so much more? he has real pace and while his crossing has not always been that good, I wonder how that might have improved with getting more games than he did.
Who would want to be a football manager, I know I would not want to be, but those that do know they will live or die by the decisions they alone make. Get them right and the future's bright and there is only one way and that is up. Get them wrong and feel the fans on your back and stumble and fall before you ever got anywhere.
Its now make or brake for Bucks and I don't mean about if he will be our manager next year, as I feel that will not be an issue as he surely will be. No I mean make or brake about what he has achieved with the large squad he had at his disposal, a win on the last game of the season and fans will sing his name, a defeat and results going against us elsewhere and some for sure will be calling for his head.
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Post by stuartB on Apr 21, 2009 22:06:56 GMT
The players you mention either fall into the category of inconsistent or not given a long enough run in the side. to be far to bucks he has used a changing formation to suit the opposition and whether we are home or away.
as we have the best away record in the BSP, i guess he is vindicated with his 4-5-1-1, which thompson has done particularly well. But would Thompson be preferred in our home formation of 4-4-2?
it is very difficult to keep all those players and all those fans happy all the time, if not impossible.
My personal opinion is that Buckle has had more money made available to him than any manager that I care to remember in 32 years of following the Gulls and therefore it is right that we demand success. If and it's a big if, we do not get promoted again this year, he must go. If we do get promoted, then he will be held aloft and celebrated as the messiah as King Leroy does!
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petef
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Post by petef on Apr 21, 2009 22:56:22 GMT
No.
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petef
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Post by petef on Apr 21, 2009 23:14:04 GMT
I will expand. Even if certain players have shown a willingness and consistency Careyol, Stevens, Green and Ellis in particular they never seem to get a decent run in he side. The manager undoubtedly has his favourites but I believe there is a fear of failure factor especially after the start of the season debacle when he dug his heels in and ignored the criticism until he just had to revert back to the tried and trusted. Why did he drop Nico at the start? Undoubtedly one of the best at this level simply to accomdate the more experienced and newly aquired Hodges . Greavsy has lost all his pace so slipping him back inyto defence might have worked but it was an unmitigated disaster. These early season selection problems have a direct link to our home form and our current position of struggling to make a playoff spot even with an incredible record breaking away record. So my NO summed up is not adventurous enough with team sellection at home which has cost us dear. Sometimes you just have to be patient and give the young-uns a chance or if they arnt good enough get rid! Retained list out soon!!!
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 22, 2009 3:16:37 GMT
So my NO summed up is not adventurous enough with team sellection at home which has cost us dear. Sometimes you just have to be patient and give the young-uns a chance or if they arnt good enough get rid! Retained list out soon!!! I guess the main accusation of "not being adventurous" in home selections would lay in the preference of "wide midfielders" to wingers.................Carlisle and Dsane to Stevens and Caryol ~ would that be a fair assumption? Yet I believe the manager's preference comes from the problem that MOST teams who come to Plainmoor set their stall out to attain a point by flooding the midfield and in particular they will "double up" on the likes of Stevens and Caryol. So the dilemma then is "what do we do?" Do we play with the young wingers irrespectively and almost certainly get out gunned and out numbered in midfield or do we go with the method we have, yet in my opinion have STILL struggled to win at home enough times to satisfy the fans. At the end of the season we have only fallen short by a couple of extra home wins to be on a par with challenging Burton for the title on Sunday, and (maybe) lost a couple of extra games that making draws out of would have been more acceptable.............after all, no team wins ALL it's home games! Away from home, we have an almost unimpeachable record ~ with 43 points, way ahead of anyone else's and that just goes to prove that almost without exception; when sides open up and take us on they are much easier to play against................even if our use of the out and out wingers has still been limited! Now another thing concerning the home record......................will I be pilloried for claiming that OUR crowd have become the most critical and hardest to please of those supporting the sides at the top of the BSP? I would say emphatically "YES, THEY HAVE", and to that end the Plainmoor crowd are reaping what they sow. The relentless criticism of the manager from far too many people, the diminishing numbers, a local rag that far too easily allows the loony fringe to post scandalous comments on their website without challenge, and the unforgivable singling out of certain individual players for the wrath of the terraces and stands match in, match out. Some of this criticism reflects directly the manager's policy of preference to midfielders over exciting young wingers during the aforementioned home games where the dilemma is how best to overcome the stultifying opposition. Of course, there are dreamers amongst the faithful who blithely say "oh use the wings and to hell with the consequences, we want to be entertained" but in my opinion NOTHING EATS INTO THE AVERAGE GATE MORE THAN FAILING TO WIN AT HOME!There is criticism too of the manager's efforts to change the approach from last season when the accusation was of an unacceptably low level of cultural football. Yet in reality he was merely reacting to that howl of protest by trying to instill a more constructive pairing at the heart of the defence so that the ball was played out with more emphasis on care and precision yet when those players showed a difficulty with the nuts and bolts of defending that the more limited traditional type of central defenders take to with ease; there was a distinct lack of patience amongst the critical masses then Pete. Eight games into the season and we were "going down" according to many, "Buckle must go" cried some "you don't know what you're doing" sang others. This is the damnedest and hardest league to get out of, unless you want to do it the "Weymouth or Woking Way" ~ keep changing your managers and the rest will follow................Northwich, another example. Consistency and patience with the manager is everything in my opinion................Nigel Clough and ten years at Burton Albion a fine example; so I say leave the manager alone to get on with his job regardless of whether or not we qualify for the Play Offs on Sunday..................play offs that are but a complete "cup tie" gamble anyway. Building this club up is an ongoing task and won't finish merely at the successful conclusion by winning promotion this season. There will be players to move in and those to move on. There will be the pressures of the intrusive financial situation to withstand and there will also be the relentless criticism and dissent of those who seem to know what they want but don't really have a constructive alternative to put forward. Yes, managing any football club is a hard job, but managing OUR football club a virtually thankless task in my opinion!
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Post by aussie on Apr 22, 2009 7:21:40 GMT
We will be out of the play-off zone come Saturday because results will go against us, with that pressure on us and up against Burton I`m dreadfully afraid we have totally blown it. How do I know this? It`s my birthday next week and I never get a decent birthday present, so when we don`t make it you can all blame me! I take this stance because when ever I have been all positive and happy I get kicked in the teeth, I feel this is the safest way to feel as it might hurt less if I accept it now!
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Post by buster on Apr 22, 2009 12:23:39 GMT
My only slight concern, and its not a criticism, has been over use of key players.
The players may say they have plenty left in the tank. But it is a big ask to expect the likes of Sills & Hargreaves to keep the dirty work all season without a decent break.
I feel we missed opportunities against lesser opposition or when a game was dead to sub key players. not easy I know as PB would get the blame if it back fired in a game. It also has a negative affect on the fringe players only getting the occasional game then getting dropped again. buster
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Fonda
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Post by Fonda on Apr 22, 2009 12:44:16 GMT
There is criticism too of the manager's efforts to change the approach from last season when the accusation was of an unacceptably low level of cultural football. Yet in reality he was merely reacting to that howl of protest by trying to instill a more constructive pairing at the heart of the defence so that the ball was played out with more emphasis on care and precision yet when those players showed a difficulty with the nuts and bolts of defending that the more limited traditional type of central defenders take to with ease; there was a distinct lack of patience amongst the critical masses then Pete. Eight games into the season and we were "going down" according to many, "Buckle must go" cried some "you don't know what you're doing" sang others. Is the insinuation here that the natural response to criticism of the style of play is to move a midfielder into the defence? And that when it fails, it's the fault of the supporters rather than the manager who made such a questionable decision? Do Arsenal or Man Utd have an established midfield player in the centre of their defence? Weren't Woods and Taylor the defensive partnership in the excellent football team managed by Leroy? Are either of them midfielders? We did need to play a more varied style of football. And we've done so at times. But having Greavsie in the middle of the defence was never going to be the instigator of such a change. Dare i suggest that having Nicky Wroe, a midfielder that can pass the ball, in the centre of the pitch, was the most important element. In my opinion, the make-up of the squad is wrong, and it's not been used to it's full potential either. We signed numerous central midfield players, half of whom were destined to hardly kick a ball, yet we couldn’t find a winger that’s comfortable on his left foot? We signed countless strikers, but none of them evidently possess the right attributes to effectively replace Sillsy when he needed a break? Our left-back only got back in the side when it became evident the player brought in to replace him wasn’t up to the job. We have one player in the squad that can effectively play right-back. I thought the squad built at the start of this season was widely heralded as much stronger than the one we had last year. This would enable a degree of ‘horses for courses’ throughout the season, which would ensure no players needed to be suffering fatigue entering the final furlong. But there are still players that get selected, week after week, regardless of form. ‘Experience’ is evidently the most important attribute for any player to have. But some of these ‘experienced’ players are letting the manager down. They’ve not repaid his faith as their performances at times have not reflected the desired ‘been there, done that’ demeanor. Ask players such as Ellis, Brough, Thompson, Carayol and Green if they’ve been given a fair crack. All of them (Ellis apart) were highly regarded players at this level when they arrived. I wonder if their stock has risen this season? Ellis and Thompson have both done well when called upon, but neither are called very often. Carayol is raw, but has ability. His effectiveness isn’t going to rise by playing 15 minutes every fortnight. Matt Green, whilst not scoring the goals we hoped from him, has always worked hard. Yet he got replaced by a man who doesn’t take the game seriously enough to maintain any level of fitness. I’ll be interested to see the retained list. And even more interested to see which players are offered new deals but prefer to take their chances elsewhere, rather than spend another season in the family stand. We have some talented young players in the squad. It’ll be a shame if they leave before having the chance to show exactly how good. All no more than personal opinion you understand.
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midlandstufc
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Post by midlandstufc on Apr 22, 2009 12:46:42 GMT
I would like to point you in the direction of a very astute use of the squad - namely in having Christie on the bench. Buckle has worked out that having Christie on the bench is the balanced option. Christie sits on one side whilst the other four sit on the other! The only problem is when Christie gets up for another Mars bar all the others tumble off the other side! Merse; please amend your post because I'm sure you don't really want to 'impeach' our away record. To be serious for a smidgen; I've always said that we do not use our subs early enough. We have been tentative in bringing on the likes of Carayol to chase a game and flummox tired defenders and short-sighted in not bringing off a knackered Hargreaves who has spent an hour trying to kick everything that moved for the cause. Honi et decorum est pro TUFC mori. Or something like that.
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Post by phipsy on Apr 22, 2009 12:55:25 GMT
my sentiments as well fonda. eloquently put over.
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 22, 2009 15:04:21 GMT
Merse; please amend your post because I'm sure you don't really want to 'impeach' our away record. Of course it should have been unimpeachable and I can only refer you to the fact that it WAS four o'clock in the morning when I made ethat error!
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 22, 2009 15:30:58 GMT
Is the insinuation here that the natural response to criticism of the style of play is to move a midfielder into the defence? And that when it fails, it's the fault of the supporters rather than the manager who made such a questionable decision? Do Arsenal or Man Utd have an established midfield player in the centre of their defence? Weren't Woods and Taylor the defensive partnership in the excellent football team managed by Leroy? Our left-back only got back in the side when it became evident the player brought in to replace him wasn’t up to the job. There is plenty of precedence for midfielders moving back into the back line as their legs became less energetic and subsequently their careers flourished and prolonged. I'll cite Jack Charlton, who's move from centre forward to centre half elevated him to the status of English international and World Cup winner no less; Dave Mackay who became the sweeper and "manager's on the field" of Derby County at their finest. Even if you just look at the history of OUR club, I could point you in the direction of John Benson, Colin Bettany, Bruce Rioch, Wes Saunders, to name but a few who prolonged their careers with distinction having been midfield players or in the case of Bettany - a striker when he arrived. I've not said it "was the fault of the fans" that the experiment didn't last, I said there was not much patience shown from the terraces and stands. Hodges is able to fulfil several roles, his stint at left back probably owed more to Nicholson's prolonged previous season and possible lack of sharpness in pre season than anything else, and to this day I'd venture that Hodges remains our best distributor of the ball from the centre of defence, as befits a player experienced in playing in midfield. Woods and Taylor's strongest points were hardly their distribution, even playing under the encouragement of Leroy Rosenior and to use clubs the size of Arsenal and Man Utd as a stick to beat the small outfit that OUR club is, is just ridiculous with BOTH those clubs having squads of over fifty players! There is merit in the argument of squad rotation just as there is merit in the argument for consistency built from the familiarity of a regular "core" to the team, I can't say I have a preference for either but I'm certainly happy for an individual manager to run things his way....................it's what he's paid to do and it's best to let them get on with it without constantly berating them in my experience.
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Fonda
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Post by Fonda on Apr 22, 2009 16:20:51 GMT
There is plenty of precedence for midfielders moving back into the back line as their legs became less energetic and subsequently their careers flourished and prolonged. I'll cite Jack Charlton, who's move from centre forward to centre half elevated him to the status of English international and World Cup winner no less; Dave Mackay who became the sweeper and "manager's on the field" of Derby County at their finest. Even if you just look at the history of OUR club, I could point you in the direction of John Benson, Colin Bettany, Bruce Rioch, Wes Saunders, to name but a few who prolonged their careers with distinction having been midfield players or in the case of Bettany - a striker when he arrived. I've not said it "was the fault of the fans" that the experiment didn't last, I said there was not much patience shown from the terraces and stands. Hodges is able to fulfil several roles, his stint at left back probably owed more to Nicholson's prolonged previous season and possible lack of sharpness in pre season than anything else, and to this day I'd venture that Hodges remains our best distributor of the ball from the centre of defence, as befits a player experienced in playing in midfield. Woods and Taylor's strongest points were hardly their distribution, even playing under the encouragement of Leroy Rosenior and to use clubs the size of Arsenal and Man Utd as a stick to beat the small outfit that OUR club is, is just ridiculous with BOTH those clubs having squads of over fifty players! There is merit in the argument of squad rotation just as there is merit in the argument for consistency built from the familiarity of a regular "core" to the team, I can't say I have a preference for either but I'm certainly happy for an individual manager to run things his way....................it's what he's paid to do and it's best to let them get on with it without constantly berating them in my experience. Of course there is precedent of midfieders 'retreating' into the defence when 'their legs became less energetic'. But if that was the reason for Greavsie's hasty repositioning, should he subsequently have been asked to play virtually every minute of every game since? Regarding the players you mention, i thought Wes Saunders was a defender, that looked like a fish out of water when asked to play in midfield, and was rapidly reassigned to the defensie role he knew so well? As for Hodges, he might be 'the best distributor' from the centre of the defence - but there are other, possibly more important aspects to playing in that role. I think we have better defenders at the club than him, and whilst he performed well alongside Steve Woods, i've yet to see a decent performance from the Todd/Hodges combination. They don't seem to communicate well and neither have the pace to make amends when mistakes are made.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Apr 22, 2009 16:44:36 GMT
[quote author=merse board=general thread=1997 post=22016 time=1240414258 [/quote][I've not said it "was the fault of the fans" that the experiment didn't last, I said there was not much patience shown from the terraces and stands.
[/quote]
But how many more games were fans expected to remain patient merse, if it had been just one or two more game then we would not have anything to play for on Sunday as we would be out of the play-offs and a few points to far behind.
So what would you have preferred then? stick with it as it was and just get even further behind. Maybe you think if we stuck with Hargreaves as a defender then in the end those games that we drew or lost would have all been victories.
I think not and why when anyone makes good points that tell it how it was, do you just want to claim their views are only being made to try and bash the manager.
Giving praise where it is due is just fine, but there are two sides to any coin and when things have been done that were wrong or did not work, then fans should be free to state their views and not be in fear that someone will want to stick a label on them, as some sort of anti Buckle type person.
You say that Hodges is the best passer out from the back, it seems to me all who play there are told to huff it up field and try and aim it toward Sills.
The way it should be played is the shorter pass to a midfield player who then looks at what option's he has. Such passes are far more easy to perform than trying to hit a fifty yard ball, that ends up more in hope of finding another player wearing the same shirt.
Its how its meant to be played Merse, yes during games the long ball can and should be used, but if as you suggest we have no one apart from Hodges who can deliver such a good ball from the back, then why do we not play to the players strengths we have and keep the passes much shorter.
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nigep
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Post by nigep on Apr 22, 2009 17:30:12 GMT
I believe we have a more talented squad of individuals than last season but the balance is not right. We currently have Sills, Sturrock, Benyon, Green, D'sane and Christie who are forwards yet we have not adequately replaced Zebs nor have someone that PB trusts enough to give Greavsie a rest. Some players appear to get ample opportunity whilst others must perform either in the 20 minutes or so they come on for or in one game or they are out again. I feel that Carayol is a match winner at this level and he should have been given an extended run with critical analysis after each game. That raw talent may have actually developed if this happened. We have many more options than last season and PB has changed things around, for instance playing Thompson in the hole earlier on. Unfortunately, too often, we revert to the default setting of lumping it towards Sills or just as infuriating, the long throw to Sills, time after time after blooody time. That is why we are so predictable and other teams cope against us. If only we could mix it up during a game more often. We have plenty of pace but are incapable of using it effectively. Sorry, gone into auto. Don't get much time on the PC!
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