Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2009 17:55:32 GMT
I know we as fans want nothing more than to get back into the football league and as soon as possible. While I do not think the BSP is just a pub league, for me it just makes me feel my team is now a lowly team and not the much bigger team I always thought it was. Is it just me? or do you feel we now just seem a small club, OK we really were never what anyone would call a big team, but this BSP league for me is the lowest of the low.
Its not the fault of our board we find ourselves in this league, we know who to blame for that and we can't fault the effort and resources the board has put into the club to get us back up to the football league. The more I think about the words of Dave Shaw, the more I'm starting to believe some of his points are ones we may meed to give some more thought.
It was said this week that a forum needs a Dave Shaw, but that viewpoint was based on having someone who posts and then gets others wound up by his post and then gets plenty of replies, mostly incomplete disagreement. But you see I do not believe Dave makes his posts just to stir others up, he has stuck to what he claims and has stated he really hopes to be proved wrong because he really does only want the best for the club.
I do believe that and one reason he gives for not believing Bucks is up to the job, is the fact that Bucks has had better backing than most managers ever before him at the club. While that may be true, if Leroy was here now, he would have also enjoyed the same level of backing and not the penny pinching backing he got from Bateson. I do feel its a bit unfair on Bucks,as we know success can't be bought, yes it may well give the club a much better chance, but that is all it can do.
Dave claims that if we do not get promoted this season, we will be stuck down here a very long time, but is he right? will failing to go up this season make it even harder the following seasons? Well I'm starting to think that may well be the case and as I look at events in Yeovil and how that club rose so quickly, but now seems to be sliding back down, it really does get you thinking.
That really feel good factor played a big part in Yeovils continued success, when the got back to back promotions and it seemed then that everyone in Yeovil was a fan and the gates were very good and the club was on a high. I felt if they had gone up again, we could have seem our first Premiership team in the southwest in a few years. I'm not going to lay the blame on Webb, but he came in and moved on the best players at the club and while he was soon got rid of, Yeovil have not been doing nearly as well as they once where.
The result has seem a big drop in those going to games, when you think there is one club in Div one, who gets 20.000 at home gates, you can see that Yeovils 5000 is never going to be enough to pay the wages needed to attract the top players. I believe we will see Yeovil come back into Div 2 and they could even end up as a non league team again.
We had that feel good factor, it was when we finally saw our club was saved and more important in safe hands at last, gates over 3000 and we just missed out on promotion and got to a Wembley final. But that painful defeat to Exeter that saw then go up and not us, did plenty of other damage and not least has played its part in lower gates this season, along with a few other reasons we have already gone over.
Budgets for this season had to be based on last seasons gates and we know we are 1000 down on average for all our home games, yes we have had a decent cup run and the Ward money, but I would expect the club will struggle not to lose money this season. If it did then what with the wage capping maybe coming back next season, you would expect that we really would end up with a weaker team, as we simply could not pay the wages we are paying this season.
A weaker team and some bigger clubs in the league next season, will make the task even harder to get out of the BSP and I also believe another season will see gates fall even lower, because like it or not it is now considered far to expensive to watch football at this level.
Even more good reason that fans try and play any part they can this season, in helping the team go back up, bigger crowds and much more singing( not c word songs ;D) will help and could just make the difference in the end and get us back where we feel we do really belong.
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 19, 2009 18:15:04 GMT
I agree with Dave Shaw. This season is so important. I cant stand being in this league. Seeing Torquay playing at the Dripping Pan and other such places just brings it home that we are a NON LEAGUE club. The stigma, its awful. Especially with the scum vying for the play offs to League 1. We had bragging rights over them for 4 years. I never mention football when I play at the Exeter squash clubs in case they mention last years play off at Plainmoor. I am still coming to terms with it. I know the FA Cup was good for money etc. However in all honesty I would take a 4th Qualifying round exit out of the FA Cup, and exit from the Setanta Shield and the FA Trophy at the earliest opportunity as long as we regain status to the FOOTBALL LEAGUE by any means possible. This is THE crunch season. The low gates we are experiencing is nothing compared to what is coming up if we end up in mid table BSP. Ive been there when the attendances are circa 900 - for a league game. With Luton, Wimbledon, possibly Bournemouth in there it is going to be so difficult to get out. We must get out this season or else I fear we are in for a long haul.
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Post by ospelgull on Feb 19, 2009 18:43:37 GMT
I hope we do get up this season but if we don't go up I don't see why we can't get promotion in the next season, or the one after that.
Are Burton a big club? Or Accrington and Barnet? Or Morecambe and Dagenham & Redbridge? Hell no, all smaller clubs than we are. If they can do it, with less resources than us, please tell me why we shouldn't be able to do just that. Just take a look at a big club like Exeter, it took them 5 years to get of out this league.
Having the biggest budget doesn't always mean that you finish first. It's a proper board who continue to upgrade their club both on and off the field. We're in a rebuilding process and are slowly moving forward. Just believe it can and will happen.
If only the public of Torbay acknowledged this and went more often to Plainmoor and not just for visits of big clubs like Blackpool and Coventry. Let's not forget about our visit to Wembley last season. Where are they now? It's almost an insult for the current regime.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2009 18:59:26 GMT
ospelgull you could win a prize if you could provide the answer to where all the missing fans are  all those who turn up for the very big games or a day out at Wembley, I do wonder if they would qualify as fans in the thread What Sort Of Supporter Are You!!!Yes smaller clubs have gone up and yes so did Exeter after five years, but City had good gates as the fans ended up owning the club anyway. While I hate to see Torbay and its residents ever slaged off, my major fear is gates will drop and as Sam said we have had times when we were down to 900. If gates ever got that low and with wage capping, we would find it very hard to get decent players and that is why getting out of the BSP will be even harder. |
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petef
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Post by petef on Feb 19, 2009 21:00:40 GMT
So if we don't go up, and the odds are not in our favour, this time next season we may find ourselves below the half way mark in the league and who, indeed will be turning up to Plainmoor on a winters night to watch us struggle against the likes of Lewes - Eastbbourne Borough etc?
That is the big question and one that I hope is never even asked but it is a distinct possibility.
With so many fair weather supporters, the evidence is there from our last two home games, it is inevitable that many more would follow suite and decide to stay home in the warm for fear of more disappointment.
With so many ex league sides and some pretty good traditional non leageuers all fighting for one automatic spot it will no doubt be a tougher ask and will continue to get tougher as the seasons role on. There is however consolation in the fact that if the BSP is made up of a progressively higher percentage of bigger ex League clubs then the standard of the league and competition in every respect will surely improve .
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Feb 19, 2009 21:22:55 GMT
I'm not so sure League 2 represents the financial promised land for us. A few bad results there and the gates would also be well down on last season's extraordinarily high gates.
There wouldn't be an opportunity for Setanta money, albeit that we would get whatever is dripped down to League 2 Clubs annually. Anyone know how much that is?
Presumably we would get back the Youth Development money, though that is of course ringfenced for those purposes.
I suppose there will be a few more away fans at Plainmoor. BSP away followings are poor. Though there aren't many in League 2 to brag about, bar Aldershot.
Obviously I want us promoted, though I will miss seeing us on TV live and reading a proper match report in the NLP, as opposed to 2 lines in one of the Sundays.
Salary cap looks set to be the norm for League 2 and BSP, so I suppose over time, if you follow the line of argument, you could argue it will only be tiny skint clubs that get relegated to the BSP, making it even easier to be promoted.
There's only so much excitement Rochdale, Darlington, Accrington, Macclesfield and Bury away generates !
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2009 21:31:57 GMT
The question is Rob, has being in the BSP a second season cost the club lost fans? while I think our low gates are due to many reasons, I still feel just being in this league has had a big impact.
Its not just the youth money. don't forget the money from the league, while our first season back would only see us getting only half, our second season would see us getting the full amount. yes we would miss those games on the TV, but they also cost lost fans in the ground when they have been on.
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Post by daveshaw on Feb 20, 2009 7:00:10 GMT
Every forum needs a Dave Shaw eh? I wish it were not the case. It's no fun being sent sick pm's or putting up with snide remarks from anonymous twats.
As for our present situation. I am gobsmacked that the only addition to the squad has been Christie. He is Buckle's answer to our promotion push?! Do me a favour. Get out there and bring in a promotion winner or two. I would have broken the bank in this window to nail on a play off place and give us the best possible chance of winning the final.
Before the whining starts about the cost of doing this. It will cost us a lot more if we don't. If promotion is missed this season the Fans will desert in droves. The only way to ignite Torquay United is to win promotion and repair the damage done by last seasons failure. It has to be done NOW. It is Buckles job to do it.
I would be on the phone to Wycombe enquiring about loaning Zeb. I would have bust a gutt to get Constable from Oxford. A proper left winger rather than an out of position fill in.
Failure to strengthen in the jan window cost us dear last season and it's happening again.
We need new players to come in NOW.
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Post by capitalgull on Feb 20, 2009 9:02:21 GMT
Dave, as nice as it would be to have Zebroski or Constable here, you can't just magic them up, and I'd imagine having either here NOW would break our wage structure to smithereens.
Zebs has been a regular in a title chasing League 2 side - why would he want to come here? The only games he has missed have been with a pretty heft knee injury (back only recently) and suspension (current after one of the most horrific neck-high challenges I have ever seen)
As for Constable, why would be asking Oxford to give him up? He's not even their player - he's on loan for the season from Shrewsbury with a contract Oxford are hardly likely to give up to one of their play-off chasing rivals.
So maybe before you go chucking names out at random, try thinking a little bit before making claims that we aren't trying to sign players. If you can tell me of failed negotiations with players then fine - just don't make them up to try and make us believe our manager isn't and hasn't tried to strengthen what is already a big squad for this level.
Sure, we could dream of having the contacts someone like Dean Saunders has at Wrexham, but we don't. Because of the situation we are in, in a league we don't want to be in (and yes I am with you on that) we cannot just flippantly go out and splash out money we might not have!
Just ask those fans of Leeds, Rotherham, Luton and Bournemouth whether they would prefer that their big-spending regimes had not existed. I think you'd get 100% rejection of your spend at all costs thinking.
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Post by daveshaw on Feb 20, 2009 9:39:42 GMT
I appreciate what you're saying CG. Of course it's not that simple. But please don't tell me that the best we have been able to attract is Christie! Other teams have brought in players. There are players available. TUFC have contacts, lots of them.
My argument is that it's going to cost us a lot more if we stay in this league. Surely it's better to invest in success than penny pinch your way to failure. That was Batesons way and look where we've ended up.
There is a fine line between wise investment and frivolous expense. I would trust our board to know the difference. But they must get on with it before it's too late and we're staring into the abyss of being a permanent fixture in the non-league set up. It does take brave decisions and risk. But we must be more proactive.
The future of TUFC is at stake here.
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sam
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Post by sam on Feb 20, 2009 10:12:54 GMT
The future of TUFC is at stake here. Sounds apocalyptic but its not too far off the mark. This is THE season. I agree with Dave Shaw again that we needed a boost and cant understand why a little of the FA cup money could not have been spent getting a quality striker like the Weymouth chap whose name escapes me for the moment. I can't stand this league but will always support the gulls. I don't want to get used to going to places that are so obviously NON LEAGUE. In 47 years of supporting my team 45 have been in the LEAGUE. Give me 90th in the league every year instead of a play off in the BSP and a FA Trophy final year upon year. I am usually quite upbeat but I really do think this is almost a make or break season. I hope I am proved wrong if we dont go up. We must do all we can to ensure promotion, team and fans.
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Post by buster on Feb 20, 2009 13:17:11 GMT
We shall never know, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if last season we had dipped out on automatic promotion to Div 3 (in old money)then blew the play off semi to Exeter then blew the Johnson paint trophy final and finally saw Exeter promoted to div 3.(in old money).
Would the attendances in Div 4 have taken a nose dive?
Personally, as previously stated, I was absolutely gutted the way last season ended. Feeling that we would never have a better chance of winning something. For me it said we would never win a thing as a pro club, and I vowed to never go to a game again.
The pain has eased a little and I`ve been to some games. I go on this forum to see whats being said and I check out Utds site. I go on sky to see the final few mins prior to FT.
But to be honest a little of the hope and passion has gone. I will no longer inconvenience myself, my family or my wallet.
I no longer feel gutted if we lose or turn a win into a draw.
Of course I still want utd to survive and be successful but the naieve dreamers bubble that we can be a successful club with something in the trophy cabinet has been burst.
We are a small club that will struggle to survive from season to season.
I can see Wimbledon going straight through BSP next season. They have the crowds, the drive and the big london player base to call upon.
When you have a successful team I feel you have to grasp the moment and win something, for the next season you start again.
Utd have a history of not driving home good positions. eg getting promoted via the playoffs and under Leroy then last season.
There is only so much some people can take.
Couple this with the current economic climate and the fact Torbay is a very deprived area. I`m not at all surprised by the current attendances and lets wait and see viewpoint.
buster
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 20, 2009 18:08:02 GMT
 Doesn't it seem how obvious it is that although OUR club made a very real and realistic effort to sign Stuart Beavon, he didn't want to come here. Now that could be because he didn't have enough faith in himself to hold down a regular starting place in the lineup, or because he knew he had the chance to "move home" to his Thames Valley roots and play for the club his grandfather played for in the nineteen sixties. Whatever the truth, the FACT is he didn't want to come; so why are Sam and Dave Shaw complaining? From what I saw of him , he would no more be a regular in our side than any other forward on the books. So we have Iyseden Christie - much of a likeness to Beavon, so who are these players that Sam and Dave would have us take on board? Much as you love the Westcountry Sam it is not everybody's cup of tea..................it's not Dave Shaw's for one; neither is it mine so you cannot just expect the club to snap their fingers and a host of wannabee Gulls will come running to Plainmoor. Ashley Barnes has returned to Argyle for a reason (he has a career to build there) and I am struggling to think of any other likely striker with a stitched on scoring record who fits the criteria of being (a) available (b) good enough to hold down a regular place in our starting line up. I shouldn't think for a moment that Steve Morrison would contemplate leaving Stevenage for us, nor would they let him and the same goes for Matthew Barnes - Homer (an outstanding prospect in my opinion) or Justin Richards at Kidderminster. So who and what are YOU guys expecting OUR club to splash out on? It's no use getting into a paddy and calling this a "make it or else" season. Football is football and no matter what league you play in, if you win most of your home games your gates will be better than if you only win half of them. If we have a better record in a lower league we WILL get better gates than for a pooer record in a higher one. So mere promotion back to the Football League on it's own guarantees nothing as far as income is concerned.........after all I can't see the Torbay public rolling up in their thousands to see Macclesfield, Accrington, Morecombe or any other small League 2 outfit. So - whilst a failure to win promotion will be disappointing, promotion would do little for our gates unless we produce the goods the following season but will NOT break the club.
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Post by Budleigh on Feb 20, 2009 18:52:50 GMT
I know it's not everybodys cup of tea but I actually really enjoyed last season in this division and am getting on just fine with this one... Love it that we are top of the tree and thought of as a 'big club' even when there are historically bigger clubs than ours in this league; love reading about us in the Non League paper as one would read about Chelsea and Man Utd in any other rag. And doesn't it make a change to expect to win everytime we come out to play rather than worrying that we're going to get beaten again.
I really enjoy visiting the new grounds, and even if some are a bit on the ropey side the majority are of a very good standard and put higher league grounds to shame.
Like any other supporter of our club i'd be more than happy to get promoted but I say why not enjoy what we've got now because it's here today. Whatever happens in the future is to come and we know not what it may entail, that's the fun of it all, the excitement and what should make the rest of this season something to look forward to with enthusiasm...
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 20, 2009 19:26:45 GMT
BudleighGull and merse, while I agree with many of your points in your posts, I fear you are overlooking the real concerns that have come up on this thread.
Before I talk about them, I just want to say that if Stuart Beavon was offered the wages I heard was on the table and then turned them down when he had just played for a month without pay for Weymouth, then it can only be as merse has said, a move back to his roots that made up his mind for him.
If he had signed Bucks would have had him in the team from the start, we were looking for a striker as we have not been scoring many goals, but Beavon would have found himself on the bench, like he will what ever club he plays for, if he does not do the business out on the pitch.
The fans enjoyed as best as they could the trips to all the new non league grounds last season, for many once really has been enough and why many feel we have to go up this season, is because the real fears that our club will just shrink even smaller.
For so many they have never got over no longer being a league club, lets be fair here, we were for 80 years and rightly or wrongly to ease the pain, many got it into their heads that we would go straight back up. For many non-league clubs being in the BSP is big time and it maybe the highest league they have ever played in, while for us it is the lowest.
I firmly believe that while there are some other reasons, gates this season are lower because some fans no longer want to support a non league club. You can ask if they are supporters or not, or ask what sort of supporter they are, but I know a few who went last season and did not want to be part of another season in the BSP. The real fear that some seem to miss or not understand is, that failure this season, will see even lower gates next season.
No matter how good the board is, lower gates and the wage cap will mean a weaker team and make even harder the task to get back into the football league, the result may well end up with gates still falling further, until we start seeing those gates under the 1000 mark.
Close your eyes if you must, try and pretend it would never happen, but it will and the end result could be a part time TUFC playing in the league below. I do not believe those that share my fears are negative people or ones who are just doom and gloom merchants, far from it, they are ones who have opened their eyes and can see what just may happen if we do not get back into the league.
Yes its still the same club, but sadly for many it has lost its crown and the BSP has given it a sigma that they do not like.We have it in our own hands still, we can do it, but the fans must play their part, if you want league football, then get and support the team, show them how much TUFC really means to us and give them the reason why they need to do their part and reward the support, by getting the club back where we do it know it really belongs.
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all those who turn up for the very big games or a day out at Wembley, I do wonder if they would qualify as fans in the thread 
