Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 17, 2009 22:20:32 GMT
ohtobeatplainmoor You are so correct with your post, its a bit like F1 racing the one in front may not really be in front, due to not having made any pit stops etc, so until we play those games we should have played already, we really don't know where we are, does that make any sense ;D
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Feb 17, 2009 22:30:38 GMT
BACK TO SIXTH?! IT'S A DISGRACE - BUCKLE-OUT!!! Quite right. It's a Pub League, after all. Fair point regarding our re-arranged fixtures. As well as skewing the table, there's a lot to get through in April now. Is there much of a break between the end of the season and the semi-finals of the play-offs?
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Feb 17, 2009 22:53:46 GMT
Last season we played Crawley on the Saturday and then went to Exeter on the Thursday before crumbling on the Monday - although that might have been because John Moules (former top-boss of the BSP) cocked-up the football calendar and the play-offs were not factored in and the final Saturday was brought-forward a week and the game that would have been layed on th penultimate Saturday was moved to the Tuesday!!! That leaves 7 games in both March and April - just as well we aren't involved in the FAT anymoe (unless our season in the league nosedives!).
I take back my comments as to whether we couldn't have played the Barrow game earlier - we are playing Saturday then a midweek game EVERY week from Saturday until the final match except for weeks commencing Monday 16th and 30th of March (can't be arsed to see whether Barrow were available then!).
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 18, 2009 4:03:59 GMT
Meanwhile, over at the Beeb, apparently Burton 'boosted their hopes of a play-off place' by beating Wrexham... NO SHIT SHERLOCK! That yet again underlines the unprofessional, patronising and flippant attitude of the Beeb towards the BSP. Appreciate then the excellent and conscientious coverage of Setanta, at least now those who moaned and moaned about the effect their coverage had on the playing of fixtures seems to have died a natural death...........in no small part mind you, to the effort all parties have made to limit intrusion of selected matches into the fixture list. Last night's Kidderminster v Cambridge game made appalling viewing however. Neither side managed to string three or four passes together before losing possession. In fact Cambridge have been like that ALL season and it leads one to wonder what happened to those "seasoned pros" who if they had performed in such a way as youngsters would never have earned a living in the game anyway. It just goes to underline the dreadfully low technical standards of Garry Brabin as a manager and a coach and directly contrasts with the high level and diligent standards of the youth coaches at the Academies and Centres of Excellence around the country. Mind you, given that so many of the products of those academies have proved less than useless to OUR club over the past few years; one then has to ask why so many of those products lack the other equally important attributes of application, courage and pragmatic awareness.
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 18, 2009 20:41:36 GMT
Last night's Kidderminster v Cambridge game made appalling viewing however. Neither side managed to string three or four passes together before losing possession. In fact Cambridge have been like that ALL season and it leads one to wonder what happened to those "seasoned pros" who if they had performed in such a way as youngsters would never have earned a living in the game anyway. It just goes to underline the dreadfully low technical standards of Garry Brabin as a manager and a coach and directly contrasts with the high level and diligent standards of the youth coaches at the Academies and Centres of Excellence around the country. I'd just like to pick up on the observation I made of last night's game and open a debate on youth schemes in general. Dave made reference to the effort Both OUR club and Cambridge United are making to highlight the iniquities over the loss of funding some BSP clubs suffer when they lose their Football League status and whilst I wholly admire the pro-active stance taken by Cambridge United over this in particular, I do wonder how they reconcile the rubbish of a technical nature their First Team are producing and can't believe for a minute that their youth teams are playing to the same ideals. It's all very well the "little" clubs complaining (rightly so) about an iniquitous system that leaves them at an even bigger disadvantage with the larger clubs, but as the father of a boy who is showing signs of exceptional talent at the tender level of under 8; I asked myself last night how I would feel if he were to come through years of being taught all the right habits and all the correct technique if he were to end up earning a living from the game in a club where the First Team seemingly had a collective inability to keep possession for more than three passes and had all succumbed to a rampaging disease that rendered them unable to trap a bag of cement. Now at this stage, I don't want Dave coming in and saying "but Merse you always decrying my call to play the game the way it is meant to be played" I'm not getting at that, what I'm saying is that whatever system or emphasis a manager wants his side to play to, surely he should demand and insist on a high degree of technical ability and off the ball awareness from his players? It takes just as much technical ability to hit the ball into the channels with accuracy and maximum effect than it does to laboriously build up moves with ten, fifteen or twenty passes. If the technical ability is not there then the ball into a channel becomes "hoof ball" and without awareness the laboured build up becomes inconclusive and loses positivity. So are we to believe that Cambridge's youth teams are playing to the "Brabin Way" in the thunderous and Keystone Kops manner of recent TV performances just as Arsenal's teams (and they do, believe me) play the "Arsenal Way" putting the emphasis on technical excellence, movement, awareness and patience; retaining a belief in their superior ability.................at ALL age groups and levels from 8 to 18 through EVERY training and coaching session, match and tournament through to First Team involvement so that the youngster making his First Team debut is coming into a situation with which he has the utmost familiarity. Or are Cambridge's OWN youth players suddenly pitched into the Brabin inspired crudity and mayhem, laughable technical deficiency and embarrassing indiscipline once they graduate from a measured and positive way of approaching the game under their own youth coaches? Indeed, do Cambridge have any consistent policy of playing the game "The Cambridge Way" so that their proteges can seamlessly progress from youth to reserve to First Team level? There is an oft used saying around Arsenal: "Arsen Knows" , I wonder if they all say "Brabin Knows" at Cambridge? I very much doubt it.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 18, 2009 21:23:10 GMT
Now at this stage, I don't want Dave coming in and saying,but Merse you always decrying my call to play the game the way it is meant to be played.[/. Merse first lesson in life, you can't always have what you want and anyway I would not want to disappoint you now would I ;D You are referring to the thread Pure Football as we know torquayfansforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=529a thread I made after watching the York v Mansfield, that was not only a good game but saw some great football being played, at a time when we were just playing the Hoof ball game and not getting any results out on the pitch. I'm glad Anthony is getting such good coaching and seems to have the skills and natural ability to maybe progress and be a good player one day, I know the great feeling a father can get from watching his son play the game well and the way it was meant to be played During the half term school breaks I have always noticed a soccer school taking place in a large sports field in Crediton on a Tuesday, I believe it is run by Exeter City . I just drive past normally, but having some spare time I parked up on the road to watch for a while on Tuesday of this week. Mind you I did not stop to long as some person decided to write down the details of my van, only because I was watching young ones I'm sure and I drove off feeling rather sad at how our world has become when a person like me who loves football, can't park and watch some young lads being put through some training. What I did see in the short time I was there, was young players being taught good basic skills, the ones I said I taught to the boys at Ants primary school when he was a pupil at the school. If you remember it was the one thing I kept on about that all players should have leaned from any early age how to trap a ball, how to make a good basic pass etc. It was my view that as they should have mastered all those skills, why did we not see our own team able to demonstrate them out on the pitch. All we were seeing was just Hoof ball and that was because the manager wanted the ball just banged up front as soon as possible. I did not watch the Cambridge game and so I can't comment on their lack of any basic skills, but if they do not have any, then how have they even got this far in the game? I would suggest to you, that the style of play they are being asked to play, does not let them be able to express themselves and playing this type of game results in a lack of effort on the players part, to get the basic parts of his game correct. You would hope that any coach worth his salt, will be teaching young boys the proper way to play and making sure they learn all the basic skills needed, so while the senor players may have forgot what they should be doing, I firmly believe the kids will be working hard getting their skills to a high standard.
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 19, 2009 3:39:21 GMT
If you remember it was the one thing I kept on about that all players should have leaned from any early age how to trap a ball, how to make a good basic pass etc. It was my view that as they should have mastered all those skills, why did we not see our own team able to demonstrate them out on the pitch. All we were seeing was just Hoof ball and that was because the manager wanted the ball just banged up front as soon as possible. I did not watch the Cambridge game and so I can't comment on their lack of any basic skills, but if they do not have any, then how have they even got this far in the game? I would suggest to you, that the style of play they are being asked to play, does not let them be able to express themselves and playing this type of game results in a lack of effort on the players part, to get the basic parts of his game correct. I don't think there's any should about it, they would have those skills and whilst you might have honestly felt OUR players were not using those skills during the time you refer to, do you not feel they are displaying them now? I wouldn't necessarily agree with you that playing directly and at tempo results in basic skills being lost, more a case of no emphasis being put on their utilisation at all by the manager. I don't feel for one moment whilst OUR team was struggling to get it's act together that there was a deliberate policy of the manager to forgo essential skills - more a case of the players on the pitch not displaying the confidence to apply those skills under pressure. Equally, I would suggest that the management of OUR club maintained an emphasis for the players to find that confidence so that they eventually harnessed their personal skills to the method of play. OUR team has NEVER played "The Arsenal Way" and neither will it under this manager, but I would humbly suggest it plays the "Buckle Way" and wonder if the youth teams play in a similar fashion, or do they display a more measured and patient build up eschewing the tempo and quick striking down the channels that we saw at it's finest against Blackpool and Coventry? Is there anyone on the forum who HAS seen any of the youth teams play this season who could offer an opinion?
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Post by buster on Feb 19, 2009 13:16:33 GMT
Ah Time v Tempo.......
I fear that the days of displaying silky skills on the pitch a la Le King or Bestie are long since gone never to return apart from fleeting moments from very real talents such as Ronaldo.
The game is now full of athletes, with the emphasis being on closing down and work rate.
Still the fans shouldn`t complain for they soon decry any striker for not back tracking, a midfielder for not covering every blade of grass or a defender for not being box to box.
It is interesting in that a match was played this week which seems to encapatulate all the previous posts on this topic.
Ipswich Town Res 0 Stevenage Boro Res 2
Ipswich played pretty patterns but had no penetration. Stevenage looked a very decent side, pressured the town team, didn`t let them settle on the ball and deservedly won. didn`t catch the names of Stevenage but if it was truly their reserve side they clearly have strength in depth and will be a force to reckon with. The youth set up at Town can call upon far greater resources than that of Boro but at the end of the day its the final score that fans judge a club by.
Now this begs several questions
Which style of play would you pay to watch?
Which coach will feel most satisfied by the outcome?
Is there a place in a team for a "lazy" genious? mmmmm
The name Carlisle springs to mind. Capable of scoring great goals and delivering great crosses but also capable of disapearing in a game. Certainly not an athlete and currently finding it even harder to run with several morons sitting on his back.
buster
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Post by buster on Feb 19, 2009 13:29:33 GMT
Correction.....
score was Town res 1 Boro Res 2
but message remains the same
buster
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2009 18:48:49 GMT
Buster I have to pick you up on your remarks about Carlisle, while he can misplace a pass, not miss the first man when he crosses into the box, while he does not always take the correct decision when he is on the edge of the box, IE hit the ball first time and get his shot away, in all the games I have watched him play this season I can't say I have seen him disapearing in any game. He always looks to make himself available for a pass and will get his tackle in and I have been watching him close up and feel he has really good feet, when a player comes onto him. I still think he is not as good yet for us as he was for Exeter, but I'm happy that he is in the team. To answer your question Which style of play would you pay to watch?You may know I like what I call pure football, you know played the way it was meant to be played I think you can't beat a game of high skill, where players show real fantastic ball control and where great build ups lead to great goals. The one touch slick passing in tight areas and the quality free kicks that bend and swerve into the top corner. But I would also pay for a gutsy team performance, one where its hard work and real effort that will win the game against the odds, where the players show a never say die attitude and will not lay down and let themselves be rolled over. For most these days the game has to be entertaining and once teams start playing boring hoof ball football, fans will stop paying to watch games, so while both types of games will have their own fans, lack of entertainment will always be a killer.
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 19, 2009 19:01:48 GMT
Ah Time v Tempo....... I fear that the days of displaying silky skills on the pitch a la Le King or Bestie are long since gone never to return apart from fleeting moments from very real talents such as Ronaldo. The game is now full of athletes, with the emphasis being on closing down and work rate. **************************************************** Ipswich Town Res 0 Stevenage Boro Res 2 Ipswich played pretty patterns but had no penetration. Stevenage looked a very decent side, pressured the town team, didn`t let them settle on the ball and deservedly won. didn`t catch the names of Stevenage but if it was truly their reserve side they clearly have strength in depth and will be a force to reckon with. I would beg to differ on your fears that we shall not see too many players of the Cristiano Ronaldo ilk in the future. Quite the opposite in my view if what I have seen in London over the past year.The city has such a diverse population that there are now literally thousands of young kids with the inherent grace, balance, touch and outrageous confidence to display their skills handed down to them genetically from African, Caribbean, South American and Balkan parentage. Allied to the discipline, awareness and team ethic passed onto them from a properly structured and enlightened coaching set up; most "pick up" games, neighbourhood coaching schemes and youth football now have more in common with Brazilian football than our age old stodgy diet of big strong lads coming out on top over the "good but little 'uns" as in the past. Stevenage's youth set up and coaching facilities are way ahead of the game for a club of their size, and even much smaller clubs such as Conference South Fisher Athletic would astound you if you took the opportunity to go along and watch them. I am full of confidence that we are on the cusp of a golden age of superb football in this country!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 19, 2009 19:24:16 GMT
I don't think there's any should about it, they would have those skills and whilst you might have honestly felt OUR players were not using those skills during the time you refer to, do you not feel they are displaying them now? I wouldn't necessarily agree with you that playing directly and at tempo results in basic skills being lost, more a case of no emphasis being put on their utilisation at all by the manager. Yes I am seeing our players displaying the skills we knew they had and I have seem some that I did not know they had. Nicho has a few times moved the ball past some players this season in a way you may see a top flight player do on the TV. I have seen Woods hit cross field passes that a top flight player would get praise for from some TV commentator. I watched Benyon bring the ball down out wide in our last home game as good as any top flight player I have watched. I could go on and on and end up naming most of the team, I will correct one view I saw on here about Christie, because this man while looking over weight and not fully fit, has probably a higher skill level than anyone else at the club at this time. But our players were earlier in the season not using those skills, always looking just to get rid of the ball and just knocked it up over the half way line, its called hoof ball merse, its boring will lose fans and seldon gets results in my view. I would agree that a lack of confidence will result in players failing to get even the basic skills right and its often the winning team and the one who's quality football has the game under control, who's players will show off even higher levels of the players skills. The only thing our team is missing and failing to do is score from all the chances they are making, I believe if we were putting them away, we would be sitting safe in a play- off place at this time. Its the only thing that is missing and the one part of our game letting us down and risking our chances of promotion. I still feel it will come good soon, that is if Green is put back into the side, because what you liked so much about the play in the Coventry game, was down to the work of Green.
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Post by buster on Feb 19, 2009 22:57:56 GMT
I hope Dave & Merse you are both proved correct.
To date I`ve felt the vast amounts of money spent on centres of excellence & training facilities have not produced adequate returns.
The crunch will come when these gifted youngsters are thrown into the lions den of coachs at pro clubs. Will they be strong enough to prevail or will the beliefs of the coach batter any individuality out of them?
I remember hearing Cloughie, snr that is, having a go at a striker in training for attempting to take a throw. "Get in the box, your paid to score goals"
Do you think players are asked to perform too many roles to the point where they become a jack of all trades? Take Sills- does great defensive work but shouldn`t that be the job of the defence? Do you think if strikers could just concentrate on scoring theyd end up better finishers? And what about the overlapping wing backs. Have defenders forgotten how to defend because they spend so much time being coached how to get forward?
may be i`m just an old git but when i see, a match from that top division it amazes me the lack of ability in the players. Of course on the flip side these youngsters get everything thrown at them and it takes a strong individual with like minded family to stay level headed and not throw away the ability they have. May be a low basic with performance enhanced pay might help.
buster
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Feb 21, 2009 17:24:04 GMT
Is it squeaky bum time, yet?
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Post by the92ndfish on Feb 21, 2009 17:27:38 GMT
Dunno about squeaky bum time but it's bye bye Buckle time, if he doesn't get into the play offs.
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