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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 21:58:27 GMT
 Everywhere holds a memory and a story! A few lost non-league grounds for those who may live in the vicinity: BarkingVicarage Field in use from 1884 to 1973:  IlfordLynn Road - record crowd 16,400 Ilford Schools v Swansea Schools (1952). Sold for development late 1970s prior to Ilford merging with Leytonstone (a separate Ilford club later being established):  LeytonstoneGranleigh Road, biggest crowd 9,740 v Newport County, FA Cup 1951. Demolished mid 1980s by which time Leytonstone had merged with Ilford. Leytonstone-Ilford then absorbed Walthamstow Avenue and moved to that club's ground:  Walthamstow AvenueGreen Pond Road opened 1921. Record crowd 12,500 for a pre-war FA Cup final game against Stockport County. Club absorbed into Leytonstone-Ilford late 1980s. New club became Redbridge Forest which later moved to Dagenham before another merger created Dagenham & Redbridge:  Taken from Football Grounds of London - Alex White & Bob Lilliman (Tempus Publishing) |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jan 12, 2009 22:12:36 GMT
I'm sure our Capitalgulls members may remember some of these grounds Barton, will be good to see what merse has to say.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jan 13, 2009 3:51:51 GMT
Excellent Barton, did you know that without exception and with the addition of Romford's Eastlands; ALL those grounds freeholds were held by the East Family (estate agents) who are represented to this day by Barry and John East as Joint Presidents of Dagenham & Redbridge FC! I attended the last ever game at "The Avenue"..................my mate had a friend who played for them in earlier days. He was a bit of a Jack The Lad with market stalls in Walthamstow Market and other East End venues. He was called Terry Hurlock. Soon after he turned pro at Brentford and played for Millwall, Southampton, Glasgow Rangers (for Graeme Souness) Reading and England "B"................remember him? He was typical tough Hackney lad who had been a schoolboy and apprentice with West Ham, but didn't make it there. Too tough for today's football for sure "The Warlock" as he was known was far better suited to a Lock Stock & Two Smoking Barrells lifestyle than poncing around in today's Premiershite! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 15:29:56 GMT
without exception and with the addition of Romford's Eastlands; ALL those grounds freeholds were held by the East Family (estate agents) who are represented to this day by Barry and John East as Joint Presidents of Dagenham & Redbridge FC! I didn't know too much at the time about what was happening to the old East London clubs - I only really noticed names disappearing and new ones emerging from league tables in yearbooks. But, doing some reading, I saw the words " sold for re-development" recurring. Didn't realise one family was pretty much at the centre of things. The story of how Walthamstow Avenue, Leytonstone, Ilford and Dagenham came out in the wash as Dagenham & Redbridge intrigues me. I remember the first three became Redbridge Forest - just for three seasons on checking - and eventually played at Dagenham in the Conference. Then - in 1992, I see - they merged with Isthmian League Dagenham and retained a place in the Conference. It helps to know Redbridge and Waltham Forest are the names of boroughs in the area (as opposed to actual places). But, to what extent, are the people of Redbridge interested in Dagenham & Redbridge? I'm guessing it's really a club for Dagenham only - hence " the Daggers". Then you've got the club that was Ford United which became Redbridge (briefly in Conference South) playing before a handful of spectators at Barkingside.....there's Waltham Forest (once Leyton Pennant which, in turn, had a complex life) playing at Seven Kings..... AFC Hornchurch which was Hornchurch..... Thurrock which was Purfleet......and what's this about the Orient (Clapton, then Leyton, once neither) considering a move to Harlow? |
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Post by capitalgull on Jan 13, 2009 15:54:46 GMT
And I well remember having an excellent night out with Merse (he knows how to treat his mates haha) at Ford United back in those days - an excellent game of football with a couple of superb goals and a fine performance from a former Spurs trainee called Glenn Poole, now plying his trade and scoring a few goals in League Two for Brentford.
I actually mentioned him to Leroy when he was in charge at Plainmoor and he said he would send a 'real scout' to take a look at him...shame for us he either never did, or never rated him!
His quality and the amount of swearing from Ford's manager were the highlights of the night - can't remember his name off the top of my head at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 17:02:58 GMT
He was a bit of a Jack The Lad with market stalls in Walthamstow Market and other East End venues. He was called Terry Hurlock. Soon after he turned pro at Brentford and played for Millwall, Southampton, Glasgow Rangers (for Graeme Souness) Reading and England "B"................remember him? I certainly remember Terry Hurlock - by reputation and appearance as much as anything else. Not sure how often I saw him play - his career was probably on the "up" when I was watching better-quality football and, when he was at his peak, I was back watching Torquay United. Did see him playing against us for Fulham, at the end of his career, alongside Robbie Herrera.  It's amazing how many English players went to Rangers in those days. I saw one - Chris Vinnicombe - playing for Tiverton on Sunday. I once saw another walking across a car park in Taunton. Initially I just noticed a phalanx of pretty rough-looking people coming away from the court building. On second glance it turned out to be Graham Roberts, then at Yeovil, surrounded by family members (I remember reading he was a big softie compared to his mum). He'd been in court over an incident which followed a Taunton v Yeovil FA Cup match, one of the tastiest matches I'd seen in many a long year. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jan 13, 2009 19:28:46 GMT
The story of how Walthamstow Avenue, Leytonstone, Ilford and Dagenham came out in the wash as Dagenham & Redbridge intrigues me. I remember the first three became Redbridge Forest - just for three seasons on checking - and eventually played at Dagenham in the Conference. Then - in 1992, I see - they merged with Isthmian League Dagenham and retained a place in the Conference. It helps to know Redbridge and Waltham Forest are the names of boroughs in the area (as opposed to actual places). But, to what extent, are the people of Redbridge interested in Dagenham & Redbridge? I'm guessing it's really a club for Dagenham only - hence " the Daggers". Then you've got the club that was Ford United which became Redbridge (briefly in Conference South) playing before a handful of spectators at Barkingside.....there's Waltham Forest (once Leyton Pennant which, in turn, had a complex life) playing at Seven Kings..... AFC Hornchurch which was Hornchurch..... Thurrock which was Purfleet......and what's this about the Orient (Clapton, then Leyton, once neither) considering a move to Harlow? I'm afraid a lot of this name changing you illustrate is pure expediency on behalf of the clubs as they try to get support from their local authorities. You'd be hard put to fill more than a car with the number of Victoria Road regulars who follow D&R these days who have any affinity to any of the other clubs but the Daggers. When you run a club like Waltham Forest that regularly "attracts" two figure gates in a semi pro' league, you will seek any road that might lead to financial salvation. Purfleet Football Club began life as a Canning Town club in junior football and took the opportunity offered by the late Tommy South to move lock stock and barrel to the playing field of the former Thurrock Grammar School that he had bought and converted into the Thurrock Hotel. Slowly, but surely they built piecemeal a tidy little ground that is now almost up to Football League standard and the last time I was there (in September to see Kevin Hill with Dorchester) they were still at it and fitting seats to the terracing opposite the main stand! They only number a couple of hundred supporters however, and changed their name to Thurrock to try to widen their appeal to the inhabitants of the Thameside Borough of that name, but then there are also Grays Athletic, East Thurrock, Aveley, and Tilbury ALL within a ten minute drive of their ground, to say nothing of Ebbsfleet just across the Thames on the ferry. Then they have Dagenham & Redbridge and AFC Hornchuch but twenty minutes away too and you begin to see their problem. I love going to Thurrock they're a great little club and now in the ownership of Tommy South Junior and managed by Hanrakin Heyrettin who once played for the Gulls. As for Orient "moving to Harlow" forget it, it will never happen and what about one of the oldest clubs in the country who maintain one of the longest tenures of a football ground in world history? I'm talking about Clapton FC who play at the Spotted Dog Ground in Upton Park E7 and have not played in Clapton which is a good four miles away since their formation in 1878. They were founder members of the Southern League in 1893 and the very first English club to play abroad when they beat Belgium at Antwerp in 1892 - the trophy for that is STILL in their clubhouse, although it's a wonder the marauding Romford Kev and his mates never nicked it! Even as late as 1924 they had three of their players in the full England team and have won the FA Amateur Cup on no less than five occasions...................1907, 1909, 1915, 1924, 1925. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jan 13, 2009 19:49:02 GMT
I actually mentioned him to Leroy when he was in charge at Plainmoor and he said he would send a 'real scout' to take a look at him...shame for us he either never did, or never rated him! His quality and the amount of swearing from Ford's manager were the highlights of the night - can't remember his name off the top of my head at the moment. That'll be the potty mouthed Craig Edwards..................not a man to mess with by any stretch of the imagination! Leroy and "real scouts" don't really go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.....................or Torquay United in the Bateson days at all for that matter. Off the top of my head I can recall recommending Fitz Hall, the late Ernie Cooksey, and at least a couple of others who ALL walked into League football well before hand when they were starting out in Ryman League football. OUR club just weren't at the races unless players came with one of the myriad of agents that were responsible for season after season of absolute dross masquerading as "trialists" under the Lazy Leroy regime. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2009 22:26:02 GMT
I'm afraid a lot of this name changing you illustrate is pure expediency on behalf of the clubs as they try to get support from their local authorities. ....just about as far as you can get from Richmond within the borough (across the river and right round the bend) Clapton's Old Spotted Dog in 1979:  Orient....a move to Basildon was once mooted according to Simon Inglis (1960s maybe?)....the old New Town panacea! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 23:07:30 GMT
Although it's clearly not a lost ground - anything but, now it's a Football League ground - it's worth including Victoria Road, home of Dagenham & Redbridge, in this thread. Or, to use the apparently official title, The London Borough of Barking and Dagenham Stadium. The photograph is from about twenty years ago. The ground was first used towards the end of the First World War by a works team from the nearby Sterling Works (which you'll see on the first map below). It was later used by another works team called Briggs Motor Bodies, a business already supplying Ford during the 1920s. With plenty of land available - and thousands of people newly-arrived from the East End - Ford itself moved from Trafford Park, Manchester (where it had been since before WW1) to Dagenham in the early 1930s. In time Briggs Motor Bodies FC became Briggs Sports and, then reflecting what had already happened commercially, merged with Ford Sports to become Ford United (now Redbridge FC). Briggs Sports had left Victoria Road in 1955 to be replaced by Dagenham which, since being formed in 1949, had played at a ground known as The Arena. The "Daggers" (in both guises) have played at Victoria Road ever since and - although they've knocked both Plymouth and Exeter out of the FA Cup - have so far avoided Torquay United.  The two OS maps show the growth of Dagenham between the wars. The first dates from 1920 just before work started on the Becontree Estate. The second map, from twenty years later, shows a town of 100,000 people.   |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jan 16, 2009 3:56:09 GMT
If you look on the second map of Dagenham and locate "Engineering Works" just to the North of the railway line you're looking at the site of Victoria Road. Due South of there, over the "A" in DAGENHAM; is Dagenham Old Park where the "Arena" was sighted and is still for that matter. Due North is "Rush Green" where until a few years ago Ford Sports had their ground and in more recent times has seen Romford FC as tenants since Fords moved into Barkingside's Ground and changed their name to Redbridge FC (Barkingside are still tenants of their former ground too!) Rush Green has also been used by West Ham United for Youth League games. Referring again to the map, where you see the words "Becontree Estate" is the site of Parsloes Park and on the first map it is referred to as "Parsloes" which was an old farm (Parsloes' Farm) on land bequeathed to a Tudor parson of that name who had served Henry The Eighth well when he was in the area of nearby Barking Abbey and the land at that time was one of his many "hunting grounds" The road that runs parallel to the South of Parsloes Park bordering the railway line (now District Line too) is Ivyhouse Road and I lived along that road. How fascinating it would be to be a time traveller and be able to go back and visit in those times. In particular, I would love to have got off the steam train at the little "Halt" named on the first map which is now Becontree Station on the District Line (next stop East is Dagernham Heathway) and walked in the open countryside!
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Post by Budleigh on Jan 20, 2009 18:17:48 GMT
A great little book for showing some of the lost grounds of London is 'Football Grounds of South-East London, a visual history by Mike Floate'. A really interesting character who has published many of these small books which don't look much but are really quite something. This particular one has some fascinating photos of a derelict Fisher Athletic, The Mount (sometime home of Charlton for a season and the one that I found the correct layout for after months of study!), the old Woolwich Stadium, Erith and Belvedere after the fire, amongst others... As well as Arsenal's old Invicta Ground which is really interesting as there is still some of the old terracing in the back yards off Mineral Street. Unfortunately when I went to have a look I was chased away by an Indian fellow but if anyone has Google Earth and goes to 51°29'14.10"N 0°05'14.33"E you can see this terracing from above. I've now got most of the co-ordinates of the ex league and prominent non-league grounds (current, abandoned and lost) on Google Earth so if anyone wants to know where a site was let me know and i'll don my anorak and get back to you! It's quite fascinating as in many cases from the air the ground, although long gone, can still be made out.
Another excellent book showing League, Non-League both current and gone is the Aerofilms 'Football Grounds in London from the Air' which shows Southall, Walthamstow etc..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2009 22:00:10 GMT
(Woolwich) Arsenal at home in East London... ...one game against Leicester Fosse in 1895 at the Lyttelton Ground, Leyton. Manor Ground, Plumstead closed because of crowd trouble at a game against Burton Wanderers....  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jan 21, 2009 3:50:52 GMT
(Woolwich) Arsenal at home in East London... ...one game against Leicester Fosse in 1895 at the Lyttelton Ground, Leyton. Well you learn something everyday! I never knew the County Ground (as it is referred to by all and sundry) once hosted the "South London Squatters" - as some aged old Spurs fans refer to them around my parts. The magnificent and over one hundred year old Mock Tudor pavilion still lords it over the County Ground which is but a five minute walk up Leyton High Road E10 from the O's ground although the building is now given over to Youth sport under the auspices of L.B. Waltham Forest with an indoor cricket school constructed on one side of a couple of really good football pitches and a still excellent cricket square. Interesting that you refer to it as the "Lyttelton Ground" as I always assumed that was the old name for the Brisbane Road E10 ground (then home of Leyton FC) - there is a small public gardens in Buckingham Road behind the South Stand at the O's, and the other side of that is Lyttelton Road. The old County Ground ceased to be the HQ of Essex CCC in 1933 when they moved to Chelmsford and also got dropped as a First class venue some time after that although there has been some talk of reviving it as a 20/20 venue complete with new stands and floodlights of late. It holds a place in cricket folklore as the ground where Herbert Sutcliffe and Percy Holmes of Yorkshire set the famous "555" first wicket partnership record that stands from 1932 and is STILL the record for any First class partnership in English cricket, was the WORLD record for any partnership until 1945-46 and first wicket partnership until 1976-77! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 10:41:53 GMT
[The old County Ground ceased to be the HQ of Essex CCC in 1933 when they moved to Chelmsford and also got dropped as a First class venue some time after that although there has been some talk of reviving it as a 20/20 venue complete with new stands and floodlights of late. It holds a place in cricket folklore as the ground where Herbert Sutcliffe and Percy Holmes of Yorkshire set the famous "555" first wicket partnership record that stands from 1932 and is STILL the record for any First class partnership in English cricket, was the WORLD record for any partnership until 1945-46 and first wicket partnership until 1976-77! Anybody who is aware of the Sutcliffe and Holmes record has probably seen this picture at some stage:  My reference source says the land was purchased from Lord Lyttelton in 1886 and was often used up to 1900 - at least - for important football matches. Brisbane Road was apparently known as Osborne Road (which links the site to the High Road) when it was opened in 1905 through to 1946 when both club and ground were renamed. At various times it was used by Leyton FC and as the works ground of Bryant & May (not to be mistaken, of course, for Barry Hearn's "Matchroom"). Orient's playing arrangements over the years make for gloriously confused reading. Clapton Orient moved to Whittles Athletic Ground - previously used for whippet racing - on Millfields Road in 1896 and played there in the Football League from 1905 to 1930 (Torquay United visited in 1929/30). Record crowd: 37,615 v Spurs 1929. Greyhound racing was introduced in 1927 and continued - at what was later known as Clapton Stadium - until the 1970s when the land was sold for housing. Simon Inglis's classic book on football grounds includes this 1974 picture:  By 1930 the greyhound syndicate was calling the shots and Orient moved to the new speedway stadium on Lea Bridge Road. The move was never a success - it was an inadequate venue (hence the Wembley adventure), Orient was in debt, a merger with Thames even mooted - and soon the club was considering other venues including Hackney Wick dog track. Eventually the Orient moved to what was to eventually become Brisbane Road in 1937. The biggest crowd at Lea Bridge Road was 20,000 for a game against Millwall and Torquay United would have visited each season. The speedway track continued in use until for a while before the land was turned into an industrial estate. With good fortune this 1930s map of the area shows all the venues. You can just see the cricket ground at Leyton in the top right corner; to the south is Brisbane Road marked as "Leyton FC". The Millfields Road dog track is in the bottom left corner; Lea Bridge speedway - marked as Clapton Orient FC - is on the top edge:  |
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