Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 12:24:53 GMT
Jon, Foul ran from 1972 to 1976, 34 issues in total. There were two compiliations: the in-house version which ran into legal difficulties (cover shown below) and the Sportspages-produced " Best of Foul" edited by Mike Ticher of When Saturday Comes in 1987. I only had the one piece printed in Foul but have enjoyed more luck with WSC over the years (scope, perhaps, for another thread sometime). As you say Foul was ruder and funnier (in a Private Eye sort of way I suppose). The earliest WSCs looked similar but, once it found a niche, it became a quite different publication. WSC has always spoken for a wider-audience and a lot of the staff have been there a long time; Foul was more of a "recent graduate" thing which revelled in being alternative and satirical in true 1970s fashion. Steve Tongue, Andrew Nickolds, Stan Hey and Peter Ball all entered media and writing careers - and, as I discovered years later, one of the people behind the "Vince of the Viila" cartoon strip became a teacher in Chard. As you'll see below, there was a fixation with parrots (this was the age of " sick as a parrot") and " spot the foul" parodies. Also good old Rupture (who is already on another thread somewhere) and the Crystal Palace team photo from the back cover of the first compilation.      |
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Dec 30, 2008 12:39:40 GMT
Stand up if you love Torbay!!
I don't think I would leave the area even if I won a bundle on the lottery.
;D
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merse
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Post by merse on Dec 30, 2008 14:45:31 GMT
I make no secret that I removed the above post this morning. I have no problems with Merse sticking to the subject of the Torbay council, not doing much to help our club, but why does he always feel the need to make remarks about the residents. My best advise is you dislike the people of Torbay so much and even the Bay itself, then find another club to support. Torquay United is very much a part of Torbay and you really should not just think its OK just to pick the bits you like.  My post doesn't appear to be "removed" to me Dave. I have NOT said I dislike the people of Torbay (refer to my post) I have stated my contempt at their collusion in being treated as second class citizens by repeatedly voting in those who exploit them. If they didn't vote them in, the bastards couldn't continue to take the piss out of them. It's a democratic system, so if you vote for it put up and shut up. I didn't want to suffer restrictions on how I support myself, so I moved. Your call to "find another club to support" is as distasteful as one of Bartlett's foul mouthed rants and as illogical as me saying to you to take your enthusiasm for Clennon Valley by supporting one of the clubs that already play there. Torquay Athletic are also very much part of Torbay, so if we aren't at liberty to support the club of OUR choice; should we not also be supporting them too in order to prove we aren't just picking "the bits we like"? My post made it very clear that the Football Club back then were working very hard in a restrictive environment to be self supporting whilst those colluding in creating such a restrictive regime had vested interests in doing so. If you find that by pointing out the bleeding obvious ( i.e. that the residents were enabling them to do so by continually voting them into power ) my posting is offensive then I would respectfully suggest you examine your grasp of reality. What democratic right had they as councillors to deny a business (TUFC) it's rightful place amongst the local economy to compete for the "tourist pound"? None whatsoever. Why then did they do so? To enable their greedy snouts a greater share of that pound! When discussing politicians, including a view on those who vote them in is patently NOT changing the subject is it! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 30, 2008 15:23:09 GMT
Your contempt for the people of Torbay merse matters not to anyone who lives and loves the Bay, If you find my suggestion that you find another club to support" distasteful, sorry I care not.
You take every opportunity to slag of .net, it only needs to appear in a post and you will start attacking those who run it, its the same if Torbay gets into a post, so quick to try and belittle people and somehow make them all to blame for what happens in the Bay.
The local people were fed up with how things were being run in the Bay, voted to have an elected mayor, we were told how we would have a top man, who would not be political and would sort out all the problems we do have in the Bay. We won the vote to have one, but still ended up with a Conservative mayor, who really did have a vision for the Bay.
All we have got is a new tourist attraction that has been named WRECK WALK and an ugly balloon, sadly we can't go back to not having a mayor for many years. The best we can do is make sure he does not get in again.
You talk about people making things happen, just please tell me all that you have done while in London to get all the changes? I would think nothing very much, you just drove your bus around and then noticed and admired some new building or some improvements to a street or park.
The slums that have been cleared to build the new Olympic village, would still be there today, if not for the Olympic's, the people of London would have done nothing, that is unless you were the leader of some group, trying to force changes.
We could and should have had our new bypass, the government wants to bring forward projects to keep the country working, but as you might expect the westcountry got a big NO, lets spend it in London instead.
We all live where we are happy, where we fit in better, it does not make us different, because we choose where to live, it makes us no better than anyone else, sadly you seem to think that by living in London, it makes you into someone, who feels he can judge and Criticize the way others live and go about their lives.
Torbay is a beautiful place to live, it is so much safer than living in so many other parts of the UK, its people are mostly decent hard working people, who want to see the money they pay in local taxes, spent on all the important things to improve the Bay. You can't just blame who was voted in, I did not vote this government in, yet I like many suffer as a result of all the taxes they take from me.
How easy it is, to just lay the blame on locals, its their fault they voted so and so in, you are the one who really needs a reality check.
I will state again, I'm proud to live and be from these parts, the city way may not be the way for those who live here and while we want to see things change and improve, we don't want the fools who come here with such big ideas, ruin any more than they all ready have to the lovely place known as Torbay.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 30, 2008 16:53:55 GMT
My post doesn't appear to be "removed" to me Dave. I checked in this morning and Dave had indeed removed Merse's post. I thought that was a shame as I wanted the chance to judge for myself whether Merse had made one of his insiteful, intelligent, thought-provoking posts (as he so often has done) or one of his ranting idiotic ones (as he also has been known to do). Thankfully, Dave changed his mind and placed his faith in the board members to make up their own minds. Some might agree with Merse's argument that all inhabitants of Torbay are to blame for its decline because of how they have voted in local elections. These might be the same people who think that starving Africans have got what they deserved for voting in corrupt governments. I agree whole-heartedly with Dave on this one. Anyone who believes that London has flourished because of clever voting in local elections is, in my humble opinion, one sandwich short of a picnic. As Dave says London has central government money thrown at it - the Westcountry does not. Perhaps Merse would like to tell us what candidates in Torbay Council elections over the last thirty or forty years would have changed that? Who should people people have voted for? I know I have spoiled ballot papers in the past because I could not see anyone worth voting for. It didn't help matters though, did it? These clever Londoners that Merse raves about would be those who kept Maggie Thatcher at No. 10 for eleven years - and would have kept her there longer if her own party hadn't kicked her out. Those clever Londoners have just voted in Boris Johnson. It is a fact that people who have stayed in Torbay, running successful businesses, have helped the local economy. They have employed people who have spent their wages going to Plainmoor - keeping OUR club going? What good has Merse done running off to London? Hastened the decline, that's what. I've said it before - Merse is like those French generals in WW2 - run away when the going gets tough and talk a good game hiding well away from the battle zone. People make their own life choices for a complex combination of personal issues. If you're happy living in Devon, live in Devon. If you're happy living in London, live in London. It is ludicrous for anyone to belittle the choices of others - and when someone does so repeatedly it says far more about them than it does about the people they seek to attack. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 30, 2008 17:12:22 GMT
Jon I did remove the contents of the post,only because I have grown tired of the attacks always being made on Torbay people.
It was replaced for two reasons only,
One it really is against what the forum is all about removing posts, unless we really have no choice.
Two Capitalgull saw the post and gave me his views, I fully respected his views and replaced the offending post.
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Post by capitalgull on Dec 30, 2008 17:12:45 GMT
I can see a little bit of both sides on this argument, although might have worded parts of it a little different so as not to cause so much hurt or provoke so much disgust in some of the replies.
Like Merse, I left Torbay to further myself, and I know dozens of others just from my own class at TBGS that did the same, but my reasons were mainly desperation at the end of a fruitless nine-month search for a job that would earn me more than £5,000 per year back in the mid 1990's.
I have lived in certain parts of London, and now a little way outside the city near Heathrow Airport for the last 15 years, and I have seen progress in most areas I have lived.
But coming back to Torquay for the summer and autumn, all I saw in most parts of Torbay that I visited was decline. Not all of this is caused by the people that decided to stay in the Bay and make their living, nor is it caused by the people who have left for completely fair reasons; as far as I can see they are caused by a distinct lack of investment by those in charge of such things. Just why should I be blamed in any way for any of this? Is it my fault that the only jobs in journalism in Torquay are poorly paid at the Herald Express? Is it my fault that newspapers tend towards the capital city?
The roads are in shocking condition; shops are closing left, right and centre, and those that remain take the standard of living further and further down. Pound shops, 99p shops and a complete lack of quality apart from Hoopers - and who ever shops in there apart from the odd dowager?
I will admit I was saddened by the behaviour of people who now call themselves 'locals' but are in truth dole dodgers, enjoying the summer sun, claiming their benefits, and getting drunk or high in Union Street. I believe one of Merse's friends, who I don't think is a member of this forum, claims to have been offered more drugs in one summer in Torquay than anywhere else on the planet, and it doesn't surprise me one iota.
But at the end of the day Torquay is still my home town and will always be. There is nothing I want to change about that, but there is plenty that I wish the Mayor and the remainder of the council would at least try to do. Yet, all we as apparent outsiders and exiles see is the balloon, the pink flip flops, and mainly negative headlines in the Herald Express.
As much as I would love to see Torquay as the holiday idyll it once was, I personally no longer think it is such. But I'd love to see it returned to its former glories and would hope that constructive works can still be done to make things better for those who stay - you all deserve to live in the best possible conditions you can.
And as for Boris Johnson, and what he might or might not do for London - I'll wait and see if my vote for him was a complete and utter waste of time and ink. The jury remains out on that one as well!!!
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 30, 2008 17:18:53 GMT
Jon, Foul ran from 1972 to 1976, 34 issues in total. There were two compiliations: the in-house version which ran into legal difficulties (cover shown below) and the Sportspages-produced " Best of Foul" edited by Mike Ticher of When Saturday Comes in 1987. Thanks for that. I can't remember Foul at all from the time it was around. I was football-mad by then, but too young to have that kind of sense of humour. I borrowed the first of the two books you mention when I was probably about 19, around 1982 - and thought it was fantastic. I can imagine it was a "studenty" type publication and the kind of thing that would naturally run its course in three or four years. I suppose WSC is a more sustainable or "mature" offering from the same kind of perspective on life and football. I seem to remember there was a spoof FA Cup build-up schedule - taking the mick out of BBC and ITV vying to start coverage earlier than the other. I'm sure it said something about the FA Cup being sponsored by the Milk Marketing Board and being renamed the Milk Cup. It seemed a stupid joke at the time - but hey presto it actually happened to the League Cup a few years later. Can you find that in your book - just to prove I'm not imagining things? |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 30, 2008 17:22:45 GMT
Top quality reply Capitalgull - sums up the issues nicely. But did you really vote for Boris Johnson?  |
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Post by capitalgull on Dec 30, 2008 17:33:20 GMT
Guilty as charged, but only because I would rather vote than not, and would rather vote for a White-Haired Tellytubby than Commie Ken!!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 30, 2008 17:50:18 GMT
Andy those that choose to live in the Bay, really don't lay blame for anything that is wrong here, on those who moved away to further themselves. As you have said the top earning jobs in your chosen field will be in places like London, but that is not the fault of the Bay.
Even jobs that were the same. IE bus drivers, milkman, have always been paid less to the workers in Devon, than those doing the same job in London, that also is not a fault on anyone living in the Bay.
Torbay has always had the problem of people coming from other parts of the country, who were not working and enjoying life on the dole on the English Rivera. Yes we have locals as well who do not work, but please tell me a place that does not have people who work the system, so they never work, or contribute to the country.
So many town centres are dying, not just in Torbay, there are so many reasons for this, too high local rates and rents make it impossible to make a profit Internet shopping, where you can buy it cheaper. Out of town shopping where you can park for free and shop at your leisure.
Look how things are in the town centre now, over priced car parks, NCP looking to give out as many tickets as possible, we went from 4000 per a year to over 30.000 parking tickets. Now we have on street parking meters, lets be fair here, who the hell wants to go into the towns here and shop now?
I don't and it is such a shame and the powers that be, really need to see that they are responsible for killing of the town centres.
You talk about drugs? well I must move in different circles than most, as I have never been offered any drugs anywhere or by anyone. Yes there are drugs in the Bay, but who brings them here and where do they come from? Let the Bay have some of the money that is chucked at London and you will see improvements.
For merse to try and use Nortel in his argument shows he knows very little about the reasons the factory closed down, yes we need better roads in and out of Torbay, but do you know how we can get the funding needed.
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Post by capitalgull on Dec 30, 2008 18:06:48 GMT
Dave I really wish I knew that, but I guarantee money spent on the balloon, the flip-flops and the mayoral jolly-ups would be better spent on infrastructure that could actually benefit the residents of Torbay, rather than the visitors or the drunken ladies.
And as for drugs, I can also like you say I have never been offered them in Torbay, but then again I have also never been offered them in London or any other city I have visited on the planet. Maybe I am just too scary looking for the average dealer to approach.
I'm not going to pretend to have the solutions, but those working in positions of importance should at least be trying, not making as big a career or splash in the media as they can. Just today, in the office here, one of my colleagues said he heard Nick Bye on the radio (must have been on DAB somewhere) and in his words 'sounded like a complete arse'.
And I'm not going to promise to know, but I would be interested to find out what council investment per head is in Hackney against investment per head in Torbay. I doubt that residents of Hackney get more...but it would be an uneducated guess.
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merse
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Post by merse on Dec 30, 2008 18:07:03 GMT
I agree whole-heartedly with Dave on this one. Anyone who believes that London has flourished because of clever voting in local elections is, in my humble opinion, one sandwich short of a picnic. These clever Londoners that Merse raves about would be those who kept Maggie Thatcher at No. 10 for eleven years - and would have kept her there longer if her own party hadn't kicked her out. Those clever Londoners have just voted in Boris Johnson. That's a poor posting and innaccurate piece of judgement by you Jon. You know damned well I have posted nothing of "clever voting" in London local elections, but I could you know. I could highlight the formation of The Valley Party that successfully achieved justice from Greenwich Council when supporters of Charlton Athletic, heartily sick of the local politicians' continuing refusal to grant planning permission to enable The Valley to be re-opened in 1990; put up 60 candidates who secured over10% of the total vote in the local elections and "miraculously" council members, who had previously blocked the club's return to it's rightful home in the borough; voted that planning permission through. To read unintelligible garbage from someone such as you about keeping Thatcher in power, someone who reckons her power base was "London"; someone who lives in " ToryBay" - is quite laughable. To see you jump on Dave's bandwagon that rolls out whenever he says I posted something I clearly did not. The man who would be Mayor of the Model Village  has a track record of jumping up and down like a demented little wasp whenever I have the temerity to make an observation that goes against his Utopian view of life on the Costa Del Depression, is disappointing - particularly as my very serious reply to Barton's sincere piece of journalism on a period in the club's history was a "filling in" of the nasty type of character and the shere buffoonery of those elected to represent the interests of ALL Torbay residents who were doing nothing of the sort but rather just those of a particular influential lobby who had only self perpetuity and their OWN business interests at heart. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Dec 30, 2008 18:30:01 GMT
And as for Boris Johnson, and what he might or might not do for London - I'll wait and see if my vote for him was a complete and utter waste of time and ink. The jury remains out on that one as well!!! You and your fellow Tory Ladies Sewing Circle out there in salubrious suburbia Miss Jones.....................you're the ones, the likes of you.  I hope he puts a ruddy great balloon up on Shepperton Green!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 19:51:08 GMT
Thanks to Merse for the original posting about my Foul piece - and to Dave for restoring it. Also appreciation, in particular, to Jon and Capital who've both said things with which I agree. As for Brett, this is quite a response to your Northwich Victoria posting, isn't it? The discursiveness of this site is a joy to behold sometimes.
I'm a Torquinian by upbringing alone - although it's an association that started when my age was still measured in weeks rather than months. An accident of birth saw me born elsewhere in Devon and, being adopted, the family background is a bit confused even though neither side (adopted or natural) is Devonian. I've no family connections in the area, haven't lived there since 1980 and my only real link now is Torquay United. Which, in turn, begs a question: what would be the relationship without TUFC? Come what may, I still love pottering around Torbay and sitting with a coffee somewhere raging inwardly about stuff I read in the Herald Express (which has something of a timelessness about it).
What does this make me? A local? Not really. A grockle? No, but I've enjoyed the zoo, Living Coasts, the model village - and whisper it quietly - the balloon over the last year. An outsider? Well maybe, but a concerned one who has lived within fifty miles for the last 20 years. From my postings - football, local history, whatever - you'll see I'm a Torquay/Torbay/South Devon enthusiast although I'm not necessarily an unfailing loyalist. From my inside/outside viewpoint I'll reserve the right to be critical but I'll generally keep it quiet (except for the obvious cheap gibes about Nick Bye). As for politics, a friend reminded me I once said I wanted to be Torbay's first Labour MP. Well, put that one down to my own inadequacies, lack of good fortune, changes in the Labour Party and a tailing off in my own political interest. I also doubt I could have relied upon the electorate.
Moving around the country can broaden the outlook but there's always something unique about the way you regard your home town. I'm certainly glad I grew up in the area and have had a second bite at getting to know it in my middle-age. But the danger with home towns is you see them in more contexts than other places (even those in which you've lived longer). You see the obvious things like buildings and the environment. And, most importantly, you enjoy an increased affinity with people even though you appreciate they're essentially the same everywhere.
But you also notice the more subtle things like political and other outlooks. Maybe these things frustrate a little - and sometimes confirm your in-built suspicions - but you do your best not to be too judgemental or dismissive. It's like watching football with somebody whose opinions about the game are not quite yours. Then, at the final whistle, you remember they're often the loveliest and kindest of people.
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