rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Dec 5, 2013 22:01:20 GMT
In some respects a sad day but boy, did that man change things for the better in his country....
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 5, 2013 22:38:16 GMT
The greatest man of my lifetime without a doubt.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Dec 6, 2013 0:50:07 GMT
Politicians and the media are already manipulating the narrative. Soon it'll be forgotten that the man was a true freedom fighter, who stood by his convictions in the face of injustice and bloodshed while the world watched on or stood against him
Some of those who considered him and the ANC to be "terrorists" are now citing him as an inspiration - don't believe it for one moment. Mandela had far more integrity than they will ever have, and that's why he is such an inspiration
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 12:23:20 GMT
I once had a Lobster and a nice chilled glass of South African white wine whilst looking over at Robben Island from the mainland. Mandela was in residence at the time and we all raised a glass to him, which was a rather silly thing to do at the time with all the thought police that were around!
Mandela was indeed a great man and having lived in the Southern African region for many years I know that he could have gone the other way and turned the streets of Johannesburg red with the blood of the white man...taken from an earlier quote from Robert Mugabe who said "The streets of Salisbury will run red with the blood of the white man"
As a footnote: Did you know that Mugabe has no todger...I met the surgeon who cut it off while he was in prison many years ago!
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Post by Ditmar van Nostrilboy on Dec 6, 2013 16:02:57 GMT
One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter". It's always been that way as history is written and airbrushed by those on the successful side of things. Anyone that thinks the ANC (as an organisation) were any less partial to bombings, sectarian murders, "political" assassinations (including the delightful "necklace") and so forth than, for example, PIRA is deluding themselves.
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Post by stefano on Dec 6, 2013 18:24:43 GMT
One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter". It's always been that way as history is written and airbrushed by those on the successful side of things. Anyone that thinks the ANC (as an organisation) were any less partial to bombings, sectarian murders, "political" assassinations (including the delightful "necklace") and so forth than, for example, PIRA is deluding themselves. Absolutely. The ANC were terrorists. As were the French Resistance and the Italian Partisans. If you are on the winning side in the end it makes all the difference!
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Dec 6, 2013 21:30:13 GMT
When you're fighting an oppressive racist regime who were slaughtering those who protested against segregation, is it any wonder that Mandela had to turn to violence?
I'm not ignoring the violence by any means - in fact, I think it's an important part of his story which is now being pushed into the background in favour of a vastly-different picture of Mandela as a proponent of "peace" and forgiveness. Mandela of all people knew that peaceful protest was not going to work in South Africa during the 1960s because of the opposition the ANC faced. He was a revolutionary and a radical, not the benign apolitical figurehead some are portraying him to be - he only softened up later on out of political necessity
"Terrorist" is the wrong word. It's a word that inherently has negative connotations. Mandela was fighting for the greater good. To dub him a terrorist, as many did up until the 1980s, is to miss the point
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 6, 2013 23:23:06 GMT
Politicians and the media are already manipulating the narrative. Soon it'll be forgotten that the man was a true freedom fighter, who stood by his convictions in the face of injustice and bloodshed while the world watched on or stood against him He was a revolutionary and a radical, not the benign apolitical figurehead some are portraying him to be - he only softened up later on out of political necessity You are probably taking in far more commentary on this than I, but I don't perceive that anyone is brushing the fact that Mandela fought hard against apartheid under the carpet. I don't get the impression at all that he is being portrayed as a cuddly apolitical granddad. What you have to remember is that it is not the fact that he fought hard against injustice that marks him out as one of the greatest men in history. Laudable as that may be, millions of men and women have done that. What takes him above so many others is what has happened since he walked free from prison. I was utterly convinced that he would be dead within a month of release. Any human being, having endured what he had endured, would have been bitter and resentful. A hint of that could have unleashed a wave of violence that would have resulted in vicious state retribution. On the other hand, a perceived softening of his position could have led to his being targeted by elements opposed to compromise. Somehow, his intellect, charisma and humanity meant that he was able to keep the respect of all and steer what seemed an impossible path of reconciliation. That's not compromising on the core principle, but refusing the path of revenge which so often replaces one kind of oppression with another. I never believed that South Africa could free itself from apartheid without an absolute bloodbath. Without Mandela, it could not have done. That's not to say that South Africa is a fairy-dairy rainbow nation. It isn't. It still has huge social and economic issues to resolve. But it has only got as far as it has because of Mandela, and it only has the hope of resolving those issues by sticking to the spirit of Mandela.
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Post by stefano on Dec 7, 2013 7:46:21 GMT
Spot on Jon (and without any supporting evidence from the Herald Express archives )
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Dec 7, 2013 19:38:00 GMT
You are probably taking in far more commentary on this than I, but I don't perceive that anyone is brushing the fact that Mandela fought hard against apartheid under the carpet. I don't get the impression at all that he is being portrayed as a cuddly apolitical granddad. What you have to remember is that it is not the fact that he fought hard against injustice that marks him out as one of the greatest men in history. Laudable as that may be, millions of men and women have done that. What takes him above so many others is what has happened since he walked free from prison. I think it's more of an undercurrent, but it's there - the emphasis on peace and forgiveness above all else is one example, as if he was a Gandhi-esque figure. His forgiveness is admirable but it's not the reason he's a great man He already represented a huge amount when in jail - he was a symbol of the repression. And people knew why he was locked up. They knew that he had been responsible for setting up a militia. It had been a pragmatic decision - he admitted that during his trial. Apparently at one point on Thursday, Huw Edwards said "his reputation changed" - his reputation only changed amongst one particular group of people: those who wanted him dead to begin with and/or supported the racist Botha regime For me, Guerilla Mandela is inseparable from Forgiving Mandela. But there is a very subtle message of "he changed" within some of the coverage, which I don't believe is true - turning to violence was just as much of a pragmatic decision as turning the ANC into a more liberal, pro-capitalist organisation. Otherwise, that would imply that he wouldn't have done the same again in later life if the situation was unchanged from the 1960s - I'm sure he would have, given that the reason he refused to accept early release from Botha a few years prior to his eventual release was because he refused to renounce violence This is the best obituary I've read so far: www.thequietus.com/articles/14064-nelson-mandela-obituary. I also like Mark Steel's: marksteelinfo.com/tributes-have-flooded-in/As an aside, I've done a fair bit of work on the Civil Rights Movement in the US in the last few years, and the one thing that I've picked up is that for all of the lauding of Martin Luther King, he only took the movement so far. By the time he died, his influence was on the wane, because many black people realised that the policy of peace and tolerance to try and appease white, middle class America was only going to take them so far, and that wasn't going to be far enough. It was the more radical groups like the Black Panthers and the Black Power Movement which eventually forced through the later progress. But they don't teach you that in schools - or at least if they do, it's not emphasised. I feel the same about the Mandela coverage
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 8, 2013 23:10:22 GMT
That reads more like a smug self-congratulatory article than an obituary. It doesn't so much focus on Mandela's achievements as on the achievement of the author and his mates in being ahead of the game in recognising Mandela's greatness - before he had achieved the feat that rendered him great in just about everybody's eyes. There is almost an air of disappointment in Mandela for "going mainstream" by gaining universal recognition of his efforts. You can imagine it is like how the author would have felt when his latest obscure punk band had a hit single and went on Top of the Pops. If everyone likes them, they just can't be c00l anymore. Or at least, these people don't understand what makes this band c00l like I do because I was into them before anyone else had heard of them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2013 10:52:28 GMT
There were pictures in the Mail recently of people who were lucky enough to have met Mandela. The usual crowd-the awful Blair, Onob and Geldof, and you could tell they were thinking, why aren't all the cameras pointed at me instead of this other chap! When do that lot ever think differently though!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Dec 10, 2013 17:46:27 GMT
Some good responses to the passing of this great man. I remember a grandad (born 1900) describing him as a terrorist 30 years ago but different era, different generation, different perspective.....
Did anyone hear Obama's very good speech in South Afica today, listened while driving in the car and he boy, is he a good orator....
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Post by stefano on Dec 10, 2013 18:29:34 GMT
Some good responses to the passing of this great man. I remember a grandad (born 1900) describing him as a terrorist 30 years ago but different era, different generation, different perspective..... Did anyone hear Obama's very good speech in South Afica today, listened while driving in the car and he boy, is he a good orator.... There are good reasons to classify Nelson Mandela as a terrorist at a stage of his life. The South African apartheid regime was also one of the most horrendous issues of the 20th Century. He may have been a terrorist at some stage, but there are few people in history blessed with the drive, determination, resilience, humility, and forgiveness, that eventually after a long struggle resulted in a change for the good.
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