Jon
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Post by Jon on May 8, 2013 22:21:13 GMT
The history books have TUFC's formation as quite a nice safe middle class affair. College boys. Princess Gardens listening to the band. Yeoman of the Guard. Picnics at half time with lashings of ginger beer. A far cry from rougher places - like Ellacombe - where football clubs were formed purely to stop young men getting drunk and hanging around on street corners. I posted this clipping from 24 March 1899 on another thread.  It's interesting that the clipping says that the miscreant was the landlord of the Tor Abbey Inn, William Luscombe. The landlord was actually Matthew Luscombe. It's also a bit strange that a middle-aged landlord would risk his license and jeopardise his livelihood in this way. So what is going on here? A few possibilities: It was Matthew - the paper got the name wrong. It was Matthew hiding behind a middle name in the hope people would think it wasn't him. It wasn't Matthew at all but his teenage son William J. If it was young William, what happened next? "Don't get drunk and hang round on street corners, son. Do something more wholesome". "Like what?" "Why don't you join a football club?" "There isn't one". "Why don't you form one then?" "Good idea, dad. I'll call a meeting for the first of May and I'll call the club Torquay United". I'm not saying that any of the above actually happened. I just made it up. You can't go making up a story and then claim that it is history. That would be Luscombesque. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 8:22:21 GMT
There's a theory doing the rounds in another place that the great Sheffield United team of the late 1890s may have proved the inspiration for the naming of our club. Indeed, if you look at the records, the Sheffield club were one of the first Uniteds - if not the first - and certainly the most pre-eminent of the day.
Interestingly Torquay are one of the oldest Uniteds in professional football. Most, for whatever reason, were so named after 1899.
But there were others knocking around. One was Exeter United who were one of our early opponents in the East Devon League. Could they have been the inspiration instead? Or was it just a case of somebody making a moving plea to unite the footballers of the town against that other code?
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Post by gullone on Jun 22, 2013 11:15:12 GMT
There's a theory doing the rounds in another place that the great Sheffield United team of the late 1890s may have proved the inspiration for the naming of our club. Indeed, if you look at the records, the Sheffield club were one of the first Uniteds - if not the first - and certainly the most pre-eminent of the day. Interestingly Torquay are one of the oldest Uniteds in professional football. Most, for whatever reason, were so named after 1899. But there were others knocking around. One was Exeter United who were one of our early opponents in the East Devon League. Could they have been the inspiration instead? Or was it just a case of somebody making a moving plea to unite the footballers of the town against that other code? That is very interesting and i had never realised that we were one of the first Uniteds. I wouldnt have thought a rift would have developed between the two codes in those early stages but who knows. Anyway, good to see you posting again, welcome back. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 13:54:07 GMT
Anyway, good to see you posting again, welcome back. Thanks for that, Gullone. I may have returned sooner were it not for being distracted by that bloke from across the city setting up yet another Torquay United website. Indeed there appears to be a proliferation at the moment. For me it's a case of using each in a slightly different way. Sheffield Gulls is rather good for random stuff and nonsense. I should imagine it to be an acquired taste south of Dronfield (not least in Chesterfield). Beyond the Penn Inn Roundabout seems to be a good home for general football talk, stream of consciousness meanderings and pictures of all manner of football, cricket and other sporting venues. Here, on TFF, I plan to keep an eye on the history section and Timbo's programmes (assuming he has the energy to keep these going. And, if he hasn't - and who could blame him? - a bloody big "well done" anyway). I may also post the occasional picture from Torquay United games. In fact, there's a couple of retrospectives from last season in the pipeline..... |
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jun 22, 2013 15:25:23 GMT
I would like to second that welcome, the history section just isn't the same without your contributions!
Also, our club merged with both Ellacombe and Babbacombe at various times, is anyone able to provide a timeline of when this happened with the associated name changes?
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jun 22, 2013 15:25:29 GMT
I would like to second that welcome, the history section just isn't the same without your contributions!
Also, our club merged with both Ellacombe and Babbacombe at various times, is anyone able to provide a timeline of when this happened with the associated name changes?
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Post by gullone on Jun 23, 2013 16:31:32 GMT
I would like to second that welcome, the history section just isn't the same without your contributions! Also, our club merged with both Ellacombe and Babbacombe at various times, is anyone able to provide a timeline of when this happened with the associated name changes? I am sure Jon will provide more detail and dates but in short 1899-1910 Torquay United. 1910-1921 merged with Ellacombe and renamed Torquay Town. Then Babbacombe came on board and we have been Torquay United since 1921. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 18:31:00 GMT
I am sure Jon will provide more detail and dates but in short 1899-1910 Torquay United. 1910-1921 merged with Ellacombe and renamed Torquay Town. Then Babbacombe came on board and we have been Torquay United since 1921. This summary made me think about when each of the other two clubs - Babbacombe and Ellacombe - were formed. No doubt Jon has probably told us on umpteen occasions so apologies for not committing this to memory. There's no mention of either club in the centenary history's results chart for 1899/1900. Nor did the first Torquay United appear to face Babbacombe or Ellacombe until playing friendlies against each during the 1904/05 season. But there's a Wiki article about Ellacombe FC and it appears to be a pretty good one (making you wonder who wrote it). It doesn't give a precise foundation date - merely "around the turn of the 20th century" - yet indicates Ellacombe were the inaugural Torquay and District League champions in 1903/04 (when Torquay United were busy playing in the East Devon League). Lo and behold there's also a Wiki article for Babbacombe FC giving a formation date of 1903. They then joined the Torquay and District League for 1904/05 and won it immediately. Each Wiki article is worth a look and both acknowledge the centenary history and one of Mike Holgate's books as sources. There are references too to the proposed three-way merger of 1910 which ultimately involved only Torquay United and Ellacombe (although Babbacombe ended up ground sharing at Plainmoor). Now, thinking it through, isn't it appropriate that the names of two ends at Plainmoor reflect the other clubs in the eventual and protracted amalgamation process? Geography, more than history, made that the case but it's still worth pondering. Hopefully Jon may be able to give us more of an insight. For me that period between 1899 and 1903 is particularly fascinating in the way that the three clubs emerged. As for others, the various post-1903 league tables in the centenary history don't indicate any other clubs from Torquay itself featuring save for the brief participation of Torquay Tramways. I wonder how long it took for other clubs in the town to enter the Torquay and District/South Devon League? The T&D tables in the book for 1907-1910 refer to "division one". Am I right in assuming it was a single division competition? Or was there a second division?. Furthermore, do we know which other town clubs were playing league football by 1914? Or indeed by 1925? A final thought, which again we may have discussed before, is that Torquay appears to have left Paignton football behind in 1910. There were plenty of fixtures between Torquay United and Paignton, both friendlies and league games, between 1900 and 1910. Then both the newly-formed Torquay Town and Babbacombe switch to Plymouth football presumably leaving Paignton in local football. That was, until now anyway, very much for once and for all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 19:44:54 GMT
Harrumph.
I was just about to mention my theory about Torquay United being named after the mighty Sheffield United (League champs 1898, FA Cup winners 1899) only to find that that pesky Lummaton Cross has beaten me to it.
Where's the History Man? We need him to give his informed opinion.
As for Lummaton Cross's excuse for not returning to the TFF sooner, wait till I see him! He owes me a pint and yet still has the cheek to blame the Sheffield Gulls Forum for his laziness! |
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Post by gullone on Jun 23, 2013 19:45:04 GMT
I am sure Jon will provide more detail and dates but in short 1899-1910 Torquay United. 1910-1921 merged with Ellacombe and renamed Torquay Town. Then Babbacombe came on board and we have been Torquay United since 1921. This summary made me think about when each of the other two clubs - Babbacombe and Ellacombe - were formed. No doubt Jon has probably told us on umpteen occasions so apologies for not committing this to memory. There's no mention of either club in the centenary history's results chart for 1899/1900. Nor did the first Torquay United appear to face Babbacombe or Ellacombe until playing friendlies against each during the 1904/05 season. But there's a Wiki article about Ellacombe FC and it appears to be a pretty good one (making you wonder who wrote it). It doesn't give a precise foundation date - merely "around the turn of the 20th century" - yet indicates Ellacombe were the inaugural Torquay and District League champions in 1903/04 (when Torquay United were busy playing in the East Devon League). Lo and behold there's also a Wiki article for Babbacombe FC giving a formation date of 1903. They then joined the Torquay and District League for 1904/05 and won it immediately. Each Wiki article is worth a look and both acknowledge the centenary history and one of Mike Holgate's books as sources. There are references too to the proposed three-way merger of 1910 which ultimately involved only Torquay United and Ellacombe (although Babbacombe ended up ground sharing at Plainmoor). Now, thinking it through, isn't it appropriate that the names of two ends at Plainmoor reflect the other clubs in the eventual and protracted amalgamation process? Geography, more than history, made that the case but it's still worth pondering. Those early years are cetainly a fascinating subject and you can go deeper and deeper. I am just reading an early Torquay Athletic handbook from 1925 and it states they secured the use of their own ground in Manor road and football and other sports were also played there. This was 1880 and just what was meant by football is open to question. The following year they moved into a field in Warbro Road, now known as Plainmoor. Hopefully Jon may be able to give us more of an insight. For me that period between 1899 and 1903 is particularly fascinating in the way that the three clubs emerged. As for others, the various post-1903 league tables in the centenary history don't indicate any other clubs from Torquay itself featuring save for the brief participation of Torquay Tramways. I wonder how long it took for other clubs in the town to enter the Torquay and District/South Devon League? The T&D tables in the book for 1907-1910 refer to "division one". Am I right in assuming it was a single division competition? Or was there a second division?. Furthermore, do we know which other town clubs were playing league football by 1914? Or indeed by 1925? A final thought, which again we may have discussed before, is that Torquay appears to have left Paignton football behind in 1910. There were plenty of fixtures between Torquay United and Paignton, both friendlies and league games, between 1900 and 1910. Then both the newly-formed Torquay Town and Babbacombe switch to Plymouth football presumably leaving Paignton in local football. That was for once and for all you assume. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 19:50:16 GMT
In all of this it's interesting to ponder the fate of the Ellacombe and Babbacombe clubs.
Ellacombe weren't on the scene for very long and were at their best between 1903 and 1908. They then slipped behind in the pecking order and merged with Torquay United in 1910. A brief history but they played their part in establishing football in Torquay.
Babbacombe were top dogs in the town in 1910, kept going as a separate entity and switched to Plymouth and District football in the company of the new Torquay Town. They were mainly second-best to Town but did finish in the ascendancy immediately before and after the Great War. In 1921, when the merger to form Torquay United went through, Town had finished sixth and Babbacombe eighth. Neither team, incidentally, was as good as Torpoint, Millbrook or Oreston.
What if the 1921 amalgamation hadn't happened and Torquay Town had gone their own way into the Western and Southern leagues? What price Babbacombe then?
It would be good to think that they would have survived as precisely the sort of "second club" that the town hasn't had in the years since 1921. They may have joined the Western League eventually although there wasn't much movement from Devon clubs in that direction for over twenty-five years. Instead, perhaps, they may have ended up in the new South Western League in the early 1950s.
But I guess it would have boiled down to where Babbacombe would have played. By staying at Plainmoor it might have worked. But would an ambitious and business-like Torquay Town have allowed this? If not, you assume that - at some point during the 1920s - Babbacombe would have needed to acquire suitable enough facilities to maintain their status. The town wasn't as big then so land may have been available. But any failure to have done so may have resulted in them slipping back into the South Devon League crowd.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jun 23, 2013 20:33:53 GMT
I like the thought of the two merged clubs being represented at either end of the ground and in addition to this symmetry, Plainmoor is situated fairly central in Torquay as well. Thinking back to 1899, there was no merger of clubs so quite interesting as to ponder why the United term was used. In fact, considering clubs of Babbacombe and Ellacombe were subsequently formed, maybe United
was too middle class for some and I wonder if there were any social tensions on the merger as likely that a lot of those boys from the public college were still playing in 1910.
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Post by stuartB on Jun 23, 2013 21:16:55 GMT
why was Torquay United formed? to torment me every year and occasionally excite me lol
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jun 23, 2013 23:06:17 GMT
There's a theory doing the rounds in another place that the great Sheffield United team of the late 1890s may have proved the inspiration for the naming of our club. Indeed, if you look at the records, the Sheffield club were one of the first Uniteds - if not the first - and certainly the most pre-eminent of the day. Interestingly Torquay are one of the oldest Uniteds in professional football. Most, for whatever reason, were so named after 1899. But there were others knocking around. One was Exeter United who were one of our early opponents in the East Devon League. Could they have been the inspiration instead? Or was it just a case of somebody making a moving plea to unite the footballers of the town against that other code? Torquay Public College (in Abbey Road) and Torbay College (Greenway Road, Chelston) United?? Exeter United was the biggest club in Devon East of Plymouth. Would our lads have popped down to Home Park to see Sheffield United (Fatty Foulke and all) in action in 1897? www.greensonscreen.co.uk/argylehistory.asp?era=1895-1899 |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jun 23, 2013 23:15:53 GMT
This summary made me think about when each of the other two clubs - Babbacombe and Ellacombe - were formed. Ellacombe CLB (Church Lads' Brigade) played throughout the 1902/03 season. They were founder members of the East Devon FA in April 1903 and of the Torquay and District League shortly after - although they dropped the CLB before the 1903/04 season kicked off. There was no Babbacombe club when the two organisations mentioned above started up, but a Babbacombe team (variously suffixed Caddies, United and Rovers) played throughout the 1903/04 season. I am sure Barton Downs (whatever happened to him?) posted a pic of them titled Rovers from c.1903 on here. By the end of the season 1903/04, they seem to have settled down to just Babbacombe and entered the Torquay and District League for its second season in 1904/05. |
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