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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 13:12:38 GMT
Nice one, Gullone. We'll probably discover that a (then) young finance trainee, with a keen interest in the club's history, later unearthed the discrepancies.
Just as well the initial figures were on the higher side. I would imagine that releases Gateman from the finger of suspicion.
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Post by gullone on Mar 22, 2015 17:10:20 GMT
And it's earlier in 1986 for the last two sub-1,000 crowds: 959 against Tranmere in April and, the lowest of them all, 850 for Crewe on 1 March. Another sub thousand myth maybe...the Herald at the time reports the attendance as 1,160...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 22:47:37 GMT
To be fair to 'keeper David Fry, expecting him to keep his concentration for 12 years whilst waiting for the headed ball to arrive, was a lot to ask.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 23, 2015 0:01:14 GMT
Certainly the Plainmoor attendances listed in that particular yearbook are, invariably, different to those quoted in the somewhat later centenary history. The Crewe Alexandra game on 1 March 1986 is a case in point. Rothmans has the crowd as 1,011. The centenary history says 850. The attendance figures later used in the Centenary History first appeared in Leigh Edwards' "The Definitive Torquay United F.C." published in 1997. Edwards noted that "Attendances for League games are taken from official Football League records". I recall John Lovis questioning this at the time - as figures were lower than previously reported. Imagine someone wanted to compile a huge spreadsheet listing every TUFC match ever, and imagine he pasted in all the data from the Centenary History to get started before adding in pre-league, wartime and post 1999. Imagine he wanted to add average attendances to the summary by season page and decided to get that information by using @average on the home league games. Imagine he later bought a copy of the ultimate Football League attendances opus - "Football through the turnstiles .... again" by Brian Tabner. Imagine he then compared the calculated seasonal averages with Tabner's and found they were exactly the same thereby proving that Edwards' figures were right. Not very likely is it. |
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Post by gullone on Mar 23, 2015 17:57:49 GMT
I was at this game against Chester on the 2nd May 1984. This was a Wednesday evening and the popside was very sparsely populated. It didnt surprise me when the attendance was announced over tannoy as 967. However, the centenary history gives the attendance as 1,073...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 18:29:15 GMT
That's the one! 967 against Chester in 1984; what I always thought was our lowest league attendance until the centenary history came along.
Not to dispute the figures obtained by Leigh Edwards. And I understand how the "on the day" figure - however calculated - was the one which gained currency. Printed in the papers; circulated by the Press Association; recorded for posterity by yearbooks and other sources.
But, as we now know, there was a second "official" tally. You wonder why the difference - complimentary tickets? unused season tickets? what else? Yet the odd thing was the discrepancy worked both ways. On occasions higher; other times lower.
A quick look at Rothmans and the centenary history shows more frequent correlation of the two figures from autumn 1987 onwards.
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Post by dazgull on Mar 23, 2015 19:19:27 GMT
I was going regularly at that time and didn't miss very many, usually one or two at beginning/end because of cricket. So probably amongst those hardy few  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 20:03:13 GMT
Checking through the Rothmans Football Yearbook I can only find two sub-1,000 crowds between 1984 and 1986:
967 v Chester City 2/5/84
999 v Hereford United 22/11/86
I'm assuming that's how it was reported at the time. For a long time, had you asked me how many attendances slipped that low I would have said "two or three".
By contrast there are eight "official" crowds of under a thousand as evidenced by the centenary history. Oddly these don't include either of the two above:
989 v Scunthorpe United 5/3/85
895 v Colchester United 31/8/85
946 v Hartlepool United 21/9/85
983 v Halifax Town 1/10/85
926 v Cambridge United 14/12/85
947 v Scunthorpe United 18/1/86
850 v Crewe Alexandra 1/3/86
959 v Tranmere Rovers 12/4/86
It's curious how the contemporary record - right down to Gullone's press clippings - suddenly appears to be flimsy. But I must admit the "official" record looks more plausible; a series of poor crowds during the utter gloom of the 1984/85 and 1985/86 seasons. By contrast the original figures throw up the worst before the worst of Webb had begun; the second-lowest after he had departed. All rather bizarre.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 23, 2015 23:24:39 GMT
But, as we now know, there was a second "official" tally. You wonder why the difference - complimentary tickets? unused season tickets? what else? Yet the odd thing was the discrepancy worked both ways. On occasions higher; other times lower. There is an explanation in Tabner's book. "From 1925 onwards all League clubs have been required to return attendance data to the Football League after every home League game. .... It should be remembered, though, that the data was required originally to calculate the levy due to the League and, therefore, only includes those spectators who paid for admission.
At first season ticket holders were included in the attendance returns whether or not they attended the game. The logic was that they had effectively pre-paid their match admision fee and, therefore, contributed towards the clubs' income from that game. In contrast, complimentary and press ticket holders (who were admitted free of charge) were not included.
Some clubs were still releasing estimated attendances rounded to the nearest 1,000 to the press ...... Other clubs were issuing exact attendances to the press calculated on a different basis to that required by the League (i.e.. including season ticket holders on a different basis, or even not at all, and including complimentary tickets etc.)"So the Centenary History has people who paid. It is not exactly clear what Rothmans and the Herald have, but probably closer to people who attended. Interesting that sometimes, such as Chester 84, the non-attending STHs exceed the comps. For Crewe and Tranmere 86, the opposite is true. I have memories of the issuing of compimentary tickets getting out of hand in the mid 80s. I can remember hearing lots of stories of people having comps to hand out. Some people took the mick out of dear old Merv Benney's apparent paranoia about people getting in for nothing, but this was a massive problem at the time he joined the board. Gates were bad enough without a large chunk of the gate not paying! I think Merv played a big part in stamping down on the comps culture - and carried that fear of leaking revenue through comps with him throughout his time at the club. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 23, 2015 23:30:20 GMT
Although it wasn't a league game - it was Sherpa Van or whatever it was called then, perhaps Freight Rover Trophy, I remember the attendance being something like 601 against Swansea City Bang on. 601 Freight Rover Trophy v Swansea 2/12/86 - result 0-0. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 23, 2015 23:34:10 GMT
I was at this game against Chester on the 2nd May 1984. This was a Wednesday evening and the popside was very sparsely populated. It didnt surprise me when the attendance was announced over tannoy as 967. However, the centenary history gives the attendance as 1,073... I'm loving the old cuttings gullone. That Chester right back will play for England. So will two of the Crewe 86 midfield. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 23:57:56 GMT
So the Centenary History has people who paid. It is not exactly clear what Rothmans and the Herald have, but probably closer to people who attended. I'm reminded of the official of a local league - which shall remain nameless - who, on the occasion of a groundhop, was heard to say "right, I'm just off to count how many are serving in the tea bar". No wonder it's one of the best-supported leagues of its type anywhere in the country. |
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hector
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Post by hector on Mar 24, 2015 7:03:30 GMT
Was the Chester 'Wharton', the tree-trunk thighed Andy Wharton, who played for us? Interesting to see Nigel Adkins in goal for Tranmere as well. I had forgotten that Frank Worthington had managed them as well.
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Mar 24, 2015 12:46:27 GMT
Was the Chester 'Wharton', the tree-trunk thighed Andy Wharton, who played for us? Interesting to see Nigel Adkins in goal for Tranmere as well. I had forgotten that Frank Worthington had managed them as well. It appears that it is the one and the same Wharton according to DT's match report. I can't remember us ever winning when I was a nipper back in the mid-eighties. Grim times they where - I think I only realy enjoyed coming to Plainmoor in the 87/88 season but was probably too green to know that it was the first really decent season for years. I thought wins over Spurs in the cup happened every season! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 14:55:53 GMT
I did wonder if the Geoff Thomas at Crewe was the same Geoff Thomas in the '90 Palace team, with Wright and Bright, that I watched on occasion.
And David Platt. In his time, he was the English king of Italian footie when Italian footie was king. I think he racked up about 20 mill in transfer fees; a huge amount at the time.
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