Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 8, 2013 23:05:09 GMT
At the time the sitting member for Torquay was a Tory. Checking his details on Wiki it appears he became a fascist - a proper card-carrying one - in the 1920s. Whilst representing the good folk of Torquay he also doubled up as aide-de-camp to the king. I wonder if this left him enough time to be seen at the soccer. Or the rugger? The above quote is transplanted from this thread: torquayfansforum.co.uk/index.cgi?action=display&board=otherfootball&thread=10213&page=1Barty's request for info on Colonel Burn's footballing credentials surely deserves a thread of its own. Burn scraped into parliament in December 1910 with a majority of just 130 - overturning a Liberal majority of just 11 in the January 1910 election. Some might put his victory down to "being seen" at the big cup game at Plainmoor a couple of weeks earlier:  His opponent Mr Layland Barratt may have felt a little aggrieved given his Torquay United credentials:  Captain Phillpotts was Torquay's Conservative MP in 1899, but Layland Barratt won the seat for the Liberals in 1900. Was Colonel Burn only turning up at big matches in the run-up to elections? Well he was a "football man" and was president of the South Devon Football League. He was at Plainmoor for a run of the mill P&D League game on 22 January 1921.  A "large crowd" maybe, but I doubt if it was anywhere near the 3,500 to 4,000 who turned up at the Town Hall the following week to see Burn and his good friend Carson.   When Burn stepped down as MP in 1923, he made sure that he told the new Tory candidate to be seen at the big cup game with Aberdare just before the election.  Perhaps the voters spotted that Williams wasn't a "proper fan" as he lost the seat to the Liberal candidate - although he did win it back for the Tories a year later. The Tories then held Torquay / Torbay for 73 years until Adrian Sanders won the seat in 1997 with a majority of just 12 over Rupert Allason. Urban myth puts Sanders' victory down to Allason turning a restaurant’s staff LibDem by failing to leave a tip. Perhaps his win was more down to "being seen" at Plainmoor - although I'm not for one minute suggesting that Adrian is not a "proper fan". |
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jan 8, 2013 23:25:57 GMT
Nice one Jon. List of MPs for the Torquay seat, prior to Torbay! www.leighrayment.com/commons/Tcommons2.htm TORQUAY (DEVON) 30 Nov 1885 Lewis McIver,later [1896] 1st baronet 6 Mar 1846 9 Aug 1920 13 Jul 1886 Richard Mallock 28 Dec 1843 28 Jun 1900 18 Jul 1895 Arthur Stephens Philpotts 13 Oct 1844 12 Aug 1920 8 Oct 1900 Sir Francis Layland-Barratt,1st baronet 26 Sep 1860 12 Sep 1933 Dec 1910 Charles Rosdew Burn 20 Feb 1859 2 Nov 1930 6 Dec 1923 Piers Gilchrist Thompson 10 May 1893 7 Feb 1969 29 Oct 1924 Charles Williams 21 Apr 1886 28 Oct 1955 15 Dec 1955 Frederic Mackarness Bennett [kt 1964] 2 Dec 1918 14 Sep 2002 CONSTITUENCY ABOLISHED FEB 1974 |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 8, 2013 23:37:27 GMT
15 Dec 1955 Frederic Mackarness Bennett [kt 1964] 2 Dec 1918 14 Sep 2002 I was absolutely gobsmacked to find out that Sir Frederic's father was a LABOUR MP. Who'd have thunk it? I would have thought the Bennetts were dyed in the wool Tories. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Nathaniel_Bennett |
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Post by stuartB on Jan 8, 2013 23:55:13 GMT
15 Dec 1955 Frederic Mackarness Bennett [kt 1964] 2 Dec 1918 14 Sep 2002 I was absolutely gobsmacked to find out that Sir Frederic's father was a LABOUR MP. Who'd have thunk it? I would have thought the Bennetts were dyed in the wool Tories. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Nathaniel_Bennettsome people actually make the enlightened transition but other ...  |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 8, 2013 23:57:13 GMT
Burn scraped into parliament in December 1910 with a majority of just 130 - overturning a Liberal majority of just 11 in the January 1910 election. Some might put his victory down to "being seen" at the big cup game at Plainmoor a couple of weeks earlier I know that Barty would have been aware that the second 1910 General Election coincided with Torquay Town's glorious FA cup run, because we have discussed a related "Luscombeism". The "historian" recalls our trip to play Accrington on 3 December 1910 : "I shall always remember the trip as when we got back to Manchester in the evening the General Election was in progress". He then goes on to vividly recall how it was announced that Balfour had lost his seat and was "simply amazed and could hardly speak". Yet in typical Luscombe style, Balfour came nowhere near losing his seat - in fact he was elected unopposed in his "City of London" constituency. As is usually the case, beyond the supreme confidence in stating wrong information (such as TUFC formed in 1898 and the SDL formed in 1902) there is a truth not too far removed from what he thinks he remembers - as reported the following Monday.  Bonar Law's defeat was hugely significant and may very well have amazed and upset his leader Balfour to the extent that he could hardly speak and Lady Balfour was in tears. The story of why Bonar Law was standing in Manchester and why his defeat was a big issue is detailed here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonar_Law#December_1910_general_election |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 0:00:44 GMT
Marvellous stuff, Jon, and in complete contrast to some of the political stuff on another thread that has really got on my wick in recent days.
Interesting to hear that the town's political heavyweights - of whatever persuasion - were associated withTorquay United from such an early stage. That puts the club more central stage in the town's affairs than I'd imagined.
That Oxford City cup tie must have been quite an event at the time. Perhaps the first really big soccer occasion in the town? But probably not as big as the General Elections of the same year. And, as Bill Luscombe reported, the second of those elections was around the time of that massive FA Cup trip to Accrington (although his grasp of the detail was characteristically wayward).
The idea of Unionism being such an issue in Torquay appears a rather quaint one now. And Burn certainly seems an intriguing character. There can't be too many South Devon League presidents who have been active fascists.
Well, one would hope not anyway.
Incidentally was Nigel West ever seen at Plainmoor? Probably not unless he was investigating Chris Roberts' mum.....
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jan 9, 2013 0:00:47 GMT
15 Dec 1955 Frederic Mackarness Bennett [kt 1964] 2 Dec 1918 14 Sep 2002 I was absolutely gobsmacked to find out that Sir Frederic's father was a LABOUR MP. Who'd have thunk it? I would have thought the Bennetts were dyed in the wool Tories. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Nathaniel_BennettDyed in the wool even - must have been the black sheep of the family! ;D |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 9, 2013 0:07:01 GMT
Dyed in the wool even - must have been the black sheep of the family! ;D Well I can correct it in my post, but is it abuse of mod privileges to adjust posts quoting it?  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 18:05:31 GMT
Burn scraped into parliament in December 1910 with a majority of just 130 - overturning a Liberal majority of just 11 in the January 1910 election. Some might put his victory down to "being seen" at the big cup game at Plainmoor a couple of weeks earlier This political thread is from a few months ago but there's always room for speculation. The bit about Nigel West only ever being seen at Plainmoor when investigating Chris Roberts' mum brings us on to the possibility of another Czech spy enjoying a pint in the old Plainmoor social club. Enter Ray Mawby, one-time MP for Totnes: "and today's winner of the half-time draw is Laval of Prague...sorry Mr Mawby from Newton Abbot".I did wonder about old Freddie Bennett having a poster of Stubbsy covering a few cracks in the wall at Kingswear Castle. But I'm struggling to see the old bugger waving a rattle or sporting a gold-and-blue rosette. Unless, of course, it was in support of an Apartheid-era South African rugby team. And what of visiting dignitaries? Wasn't Denis Howell both a visitor to Plainmoor as a Football League referee and as a Paignton holidaymaker? |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Oct 7, 2013 20:11:05 GMT
I know a few on this forum, and indeed on other TUFC forums, are disappointed that Torquay / Torbay has never returned a socialist member of parliament. I can now reveal why - failure to understand the need to be seen at Plainmoor. A pathetic effort from Mr Scardifield. WMN 8/11/35  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 20:31:01 GMT
I know a few on this forum, and indeed on other TUFC forums, are disappointed that Torquay / Torbay has never returned a socialist member of parliament. I can now reveal why - failure to understand the need to be seen at Plainmoor. A pathetic effort from Mr Scardifield. WMN 8/11/35 Read that cutting closely and you'll see there's no firm commitment from the Liberal. You never know which way the blighters will jump. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Feb 9, 2014 22:31:51 GMT
Some interesting research here on the 43 "founders of football" who wrote the laws of association football: www.scottishsporthistory.com/1/post/2013/12/the-men-who-wrote-the-laws-of-association-football.htmlwww.scottishsporthistory.com/uploads/3/3/6/0/3360867/meeting_attendees.pdfAmongst the 43 is a seventeen-year-old by the name of Lewis McIver. Twenty-two years later, he was to become the first ever MP for the newly formed constituency of Torquay. At the time of the campaign in November / December 1885, public interest in football in the country was exploding. But Torquay was a bit behind the curve - Torquay Athletic had collapsed through apathy in April 1885.  With Home Rule splitting McIver's Liberals, we did not have to wait long for the next election in July 1886. By now Torquay had caught up with the football fever and had decided to form a new Torquay Athletic to challenge the might of Exeter and Tiverton. Football (although unfortunately rugby rather than association) was to be an election issue. McIver seemed to have the trumped the Tory candidate Richard Mallock. Three guineas AND a cricket bat beats one guinea by a mile.  But Mallock won the seat. The traditional view may be that it was all about Home Rule, but I reckon it was all about football. How could Mallock have topped McIver's three guineas and a cricket bat? With the promise of a football ground no less. You can't argue with that.  But after the election was over, it turned out that Mallock's ground was useless. A politician's election promises not worth the paper they were written on? Surely not.  Fortunately the old ground at Plainmoor was allowed to be used for football after all - and of course still is 128 years later, the last 110 with a proper shaped ball. |
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Feb 10, 2014 7:40:32 GMT
More good stuff Jon!
Would the field provided by Mallock be Torre Valley North? That was subject to recent controversy with the council trying to build play ground facilities over a strip of the outfield recently. Mallock is of course commemorated by the strand clock tower where a bell was found and repaired during its recent refurbishment.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Feb 10, 2014 23:42:14 GMT
Would the field provided by Mallock be Torre Valley North? I'm not really sure, Rob. A couple more clues:   I don't venture into Chelston much. It is a dangerous place and peculiar people live there. Chelston Cross is the junction of Old Mill Road and Seaway Lane. Loads about the history of deepest darkest Chelston here including maps from 1861 and 1904: www.torbay.gov.uk/index/yourservices/planning/archaeologyandconservation/rd-chelstonconservationareaappraisal.pdfPlenty of fields in 1861. By 1886, the post Devon County Show building boom would just have been getting into gear. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 12:37:16 GMT
I don't venture into Chelston much Me neither. I really struggle to distinguish between my Walnut and Old Mill roads. Is the Blue Walnut still going strong? Not promising territory for sporting venues. Rather too hilly - not that that's been an obstacle elsewhere in the town. And, as Jon intimates, the building of large houses in late Victorian times put paid to any sort of proletarian activity in those parts. Mind you, I rather like the open space on St Matthew's Road - how would that have looked as a football pitch? It has potential I suppose and St Matthew's Park (SMP) has a certain ring about even though it's nowhere near as distinctive - or unique - as "Plainmoor". Familiar names in these clippings - we've discussed the Cassavettis before. They lived at Myr Hall; where would that have been? Glad to learn of financial support from Mr_O of Gosport. These far-flung supporters were just as important then as they are today. McIver, the MP fellow, only had a brief association with the town. A carpetbagger, maybe, but it was an interesting career path for one of football's founders. Yet, given the social milieu of the men of 1863, probably not an entirely unexpected one. "Torquay is peculiarly situated as regards football. Not only is there a prejudice against this pastime in the minds of the majority of the inhabitants, which is most difficult to eradicate, but the votaries of the game have to contend with the formidable question of obtaining a suitable ground". A not uncommon view expressed, as we know, both within and outwith the area demarcated by the 'Kerswell Arch. I guess we're fortunate that Plainmoor proved such an enduring choice. Without Plainmoor, soccer may have been forced to battle rugby for the Rec. If rugby had prevailed, as may well have been the case, we can only imagine how this may have stunted association football in the town. |
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