Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2011 12:48:57 GMT
Jon has made several references recently to Roger Walters’ excellent early history of Plymouth Argyle which you can find at www.greensonscreen.co.uk/argylehistorymenu.asp. In many respects it’s not just about Argyle but also about Devon football and rugby in general. Indeed, enough material to prompt me to take a Sunday afternoon walk around Plymouth to investigate.
But first a historical note about the meaning of “The Three Towns”, an expression we’ve seen in pre-1914 match reports. This refers to Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth which were separate entities until being brought together as Plymouth in 1914 (with city status following in 1928). Of the three towns, Devonport wasn’t so called until the 1820s – and has a fine old column to celebrate the fact – but was important enough to be a county borough in its own right from 1889 to 1914. This map should make things clearer:
The walk is in two parts, starting with Plymouth before moving on to Devonport.
MARSH MILLS
Something of a cheat because I actually sped past in the train and didn’t include it in my walk. And, if you look at the map, I don’t think Marsh Mills was even part of Plymouth when Argyle played there in the 1890s. But it’s the first bit of Plymouth you encounter when travelling from the east and, according to Greens on Screen, Argyle played on three separate pitches in their pre-Home Park days (together with any number of others dotted around the posher parts of the town). You can see two of the Marsh Mills pitches on this 1950s street plan. One is to the east of the river; another is pretty much where Sainsbury's is now. The third would have been between Efford Fort and Tecalemit and under the current A38 as it comes off the flyover. Older hands may recall the sharp right-hand turn into Forder Valley Road and the snaking road up to Crownhill and beyond to Cornwall by ferry or bridge:
This picture – from Crispin Gill’s history of Plymouth – shows the construction of the Marsh Mills flyover and two sports fields with funny-shaped posts. This is on the Plympton side of the river and I’m sure I saw a Sutton HS v Torquay GS soccer match there in the 1970s. One of the pitches still exists but the other has been given over to the relatively new Plymouth speedway track:
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i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq191/nickh_album/marshmills3.jpg [/img]
When we piece together some of Jon’s discoveries I wonder if any Torquay side ever faced Argyle – or any other club – at Marsh Mills? We know Torquay YMCA – who faced Argyle at Plainmoor one Boxing Day in the 1890s – travelled to Hartley on occasions but might they have once played beneath the Sainsbury’s tarmac? And, if they did, the chances are that the game was either timed around the trains or a "special" arranged to get the teams back to Plymouth afterwards. It seems that getting a train laid on in those days might not have been much more difficult than booking a coach now.
SOUTH DEVON PLACE
I’d not come across South Devon Place until I read of a rugby league international being played there in 1913 watched by 7,500. Closer investigation reveals it to have been the re-eminent sporting venue of Victorian and Edwardian Plymouth (as opposed to Devonport). Both soccer and rugby was played there – including Devon FA cup finals and county representative games. In fact, the Greens On Screen history tells us the Devon FA was actually founded in the Plymouth FC pavilion at South Devon Place and – from the Torbay perspective – there’s a reference to Argyle hiring South Devon Place to play Torbay Association in the Devon Cup in 1891. I’m not sure which other Torquay soccer teams may have played at the ground but, with Green Waves playing there in the early 20th century, where they still in place to face either Torquay Town or Babbacombe in the Plymouth and District League in 1910/11?
This postcard, taken from GoS, shows South Devon Place in its pomp for a rugby fixture. The large building in the corner is now the Plymouth Christian Centre on the Cattedown roundabout. Embankment Road runs behind the far end of the ground and the set-up takes its name from South Devon Place, a terrace of houses on the north side of Embankment Road:
There’s still an open space there today which has recently been spruced up as Astor Park. This includes a football pitch which runs left-to-right on the old picture above with the near-end now being a children’s playing area. You’ll know the open space as being on the right-hand side of Embankment Road as you leave the city (you’ll not see it so well on entry because of the Gdynia Way diversion). I’ve used this Geograph picture before and can now report that “Field” is spelt correctly. Google Maps - PL4 9HP – will give additional views:
ORESTON
Something of an add-on too as I didn’t venture across the Plym but there must be a venue(s) thereabouts where both Torquay Town and Babbacombe visited Oreston Rovers on several occasions between 1910 and 1921. Perhaps it’s the recreation ground on Oreston Road? Also, Green Waves played at different places on both sides of the Plym. These days Plymstock of the SW Peninsula League play at Dean Cross Road with Elburton’s ground being at Haye Road (off the map to the right):
But first a historical note about the meaning of “The Three Towns”, an expression we’ve seen in pre-1914 match reports. This refers to Devonport, Stonehouse and Plymouth which were separate entities until being brought together as Plymouth in 1914 (with city status following in 1928). Of the three towns, Devonport wasn’t so called until the 1820s – and has a fine old column to celebrate the fact – but was important enough to be a county borough in its own right from 1889 to 1914. This map should make things clearer:
The walk is in two parts, starting with Plymouth before moving on to Devonport.
MARSH MILLS
Something of a cheat because I actually sped past in the train and didn’t include it in my walk. And, if you look at the map, I don’t think Marsh Mills was even part of Plymouth when Argyle played there in the 1890s. But it’s the first bit of Plymouth you encounter when travelling from the east and, according to Greens on Screen, Argyle played on three separate pitches in their pre-Home Park days (together with any number of others dotted around the posher parts of the town). You can see two of the Marsh Mills pitches on this 1950s street plan. One is to the east of the river; another is pretty much where Sainsbury's is now. The third would have been between Efford Fort and Tecalemit and under the current A38 as it comes off the flyover. Older hands may recall the sharp right-hand turn into Forder Valley Road and the snaking road up to Crownhill and beyond to Cornwall by ferry or bridge:
This picture – from Crispin Gill’s history of Plymouth – shows the construction of the Marsh Mills flyover and two sports fields with funny-shaped posts. This is on the Plympton side of the river and I’m sure I saw a Sutton HS v Torquay GS soccer match there in the 1970s. One of the pitches still exists but the other has been given over to the relatively new Plymouth speedway track:
i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq191/nickh_album/marshmills3.jpg [/img]
When we piece together some of Jon’s discoveries I wonder if any Torquay side ever faced Argyle – or any other club – at Marsh Mills? We know Torquay YMCA – who faced Argyle at Plainmoor one Boxing Day in the 1890s – travelled to Hartley on occasions but might they have once played beneath the Sainsbury’s tarmac? And, if they did, the chances are that the game was either timed around the trains or a "special" arranged to get the teams back to Plymouth afterwards. It seems that getting a train laid on in those days might not have been much more difficult than booking a coach now.
SOUTH DEVON PLACE
I’d not come across South Devon Place until I read of a rugby league international being played there in 1913 watched by 7,500. Closer investigation reveals it to have been the re-eminent sporting venue of Victorian and Edwardian Plymouth (as opposed to Devonport). Both soccer and rugby was played there – including Devon FA cup finals and county representative games. In fact, the Greens On Screen history tells us the Devon FA was actually founded in the Plymouth FC pavilion at South Devon Place and – from the Torbay perspective – there’s a reference to Argyle hiring South Devon Place to play Torbay Association in the Devon Cup in 1891. I’m not sure which other Torquay soccer teams may have played at the ground but, with Green Waves playing there in the early 20th century, where they still in place to face either Torquay Town or Babbacombe in the Plymouth and District League in 1910/11?
This postcard, taken from GoS, shows South Devon Place in its pomp for a rugby fixture. The large building in the corner is now the Plymouth Christian Centre on the Cattedown roundabout. Embankment Road runs behind the far end of the ground and the set-up takes its name from South Devon Place, a terrace of houses on the north side of Embankment Road:
There’s still an open space there today which has recently been spruced up as Astor Park. This includes a football pitch which runs left-to-right on the old picture above with the near-end now being a children’s playing area. You’ll know the open space as being on the right-hand side of Embankment Road as you leave the city (you’ll not see it so well on entry because of the Gdynia Way diversion). I’ve used this Geograph picture before and can now report that “Field” is spelt correctly. Google Maps - PL4 9HP – will give additional views:
ORESTON
Something of an add-on too as I didn’t venture across the Plym but there must be a venue(s) thereabouts where both Torquay Town and Babbacombe visited Oreston Rovers on several occasions between 1910 and 1921. Perhaps it’s the recreation ground on Oreston Road? Also, Green Waves played at different places on both sides of the Plym. These days Plymstock of the SW Peninsula League play at Dean Cross Road with Elburton’s ground being at Haye Road (off the map to the right):
