Have Norway got.....

This suggests a view that I've been struggling with for a while. As a London-based Guardianista of many years standing, I worry that my personal views have become more right-wing. Is that me, or is that a reflection of the movement of society?

Back in the 80's I was a member of CND, Amnesty International, RAR, NCCL, AAM; if it fought against injustice of any measure, I'd march for it.

But I don't feel that way anymore, I feel as if our liberty protects those who are out to harm us. This isn't a particularly well-thought our or intellectual argument yet as I try to ignore the logical conclusion of these strange thoughts as they wander round my head: the conclusion is most obviously the death penalty and that is something I have vigorously opposed all my life.

But when Stefan Sylvestre walked up to Katie Piper in the street and threw acid in her face just because a jealous ex-boyfriend paid him a small amount of money to do so, I started to wonder where our societal protection is.

Is it that the penalty is no longer a deterrent or is it that media expands the minds with new ideas, but without publicising the deterrent? Or is it simply greed for money and sod the consequences? Does TV, film and, more relevant these days, computer games encourage more unpleasant ways to maim others?

How much of what we see as entertainment is thought up by the producers and how much mirrors life? I never in my wildest dreams thought of mixing acid with water and using a plastic water pistol to fire it into the face of strangers. I really can't imagine Pippa Giles and Katie Swinden sitting down with the script-writers and brain-storming unpleasant ways to illustrate pain, but that's what they came up with for Luther in the last series. Not that I would ever do such a thing now that I am aware of it but somebody out there will even now be planning the "glory" of copying that storyline.

Once upon a time, Norwegian (and other country's) law reflected their society. Now that the world is an even smaller global village than it was in Sir Bob Geldof's finest hour, how much of Anders Behring Breivik's character is created from Norwegian culture and how much of it is influenced by global culture (if such a thing exists)?

I don't know the answer to any of this, I'm still trying to work out where my social liberalism went.

Some really interesting points made by James, & ones that bring us right back to what kicked off this thread. Why the romanticised view of the 1950's ?... it's a reasonable question. Initially it could be supposed that it was the time when a great many of those now in power grew up, & consequently gets referred back to with a nostalgic glow.

But the central character of this thread is only 32 years old but kicks off his 'manifesto' with equally glowing references to the 1950's



I'm far too young to remember anything about Teddy Boys, Mods, Rockers & sharpened steel combs but did they not mainly confine their fighting amongst themselves ? Yes there was the danger of having your ice cream accidently knocked out your hand by a flying deckchair if you were in the wrong part of Southend seafront at the wrong time, but it was surely gang warfare in the main, each side trying to duff the other up.

While waiting for yesterdays 1pm radio news I caught the last 10 minutes of 'Call You & Yours'...the state broadcaster giving a prolonged open platform to another advocate of big Government favouring State sanctions on anyone dissenting from the Green agenda. Being proposed was a scheme whereby cars with only one occupant would be banned from using certain roads, combined with making private transport so expensive that people would be forced onto 'public' tranport.

The telephone response from callers wasn't so much opposition to being forced onto public transport, but fear of the journey on foot, in darkness possibly, from the drop off point to the safety of their house. Their own car,by contrast, allowed them to drive straight up to their front door.

How do the stats for muggings, knife crime, assault of various kinds, etc match up when comparing living in a British city in the 1950's with today ? I don't know the answer, but clearly there is the perception, whether accurate or not, that you are more likely to be a victim today, than you were to be attacked by a young man with a quiff in the 1950's.

Yes it is generally accepted that people get more right wing as they get older, with of course the honourable exception of Tony Benn who has often claimed his views get more left wing as he gets older


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1054337.stm

Incidentally Tony Benn will be speaking at the Sidmouth Folk Festival this Saturday afternoon if anyone fancies spending there final pre season Saturday listening to a veteran revolutionary.

Why this old=right equation has come about I'm not sure. Maybe it's to do with starting work, seeing your money that you'd like to spend on your children & home forcibly conviscated & given as a Government grant to the Camden Lesbian Collective ? We've all got our own theories I'm sure. Are there now generations who have grown up & seen the results of the Russians, Chinese, Cubans, East Europeans etc trying to bring utopian socialist dreams to reality, & also witnessing what a dismal failure they became ?

JamesB

Labour have moved dramatically to the right since the days of it's founding fathers & even those more recent days under the leadership of Foot & Kinnock.
It could be argued that a Blair Government was in many respects more right wing than a Tory Government under Heath or Major.
Was this a pragmatic move, brought on by the day to day reality of Government ? For the past 5 or more years I've considered the Liberals to be much more left wing than Labour, making the present Coalition that more interesting to watch as it tries to keep all sides happy.

I don't agree that it was the parties that moved to the right & that this influenced public opinion. Rather, I feel that the parties moved to the right in response to public opinion. The old days of speaking out for what you believe in & finding out how many people agreed with you when the votes were counted are long gone. The situation has been reversed...it's focus group politics..you first find out what the public thinks then you divise your policies to be in tune with those views.

Opinion polls show that the public didn't like big Union power etc, in response Blair ditches Clause 4. Public doesn't like Milly Dowlers phone being hacked, response is all politicians suddenly hate News International. The politicans can jump to the left or the right just as quickly as is required. If the opinion polls say the Forestry Commission shouldn't be privatised the policy can be scrapped...ideological commitments to private ownership & getting the State out of trees just wither away.

The arguments will rumble on, meanwhile I'm going to combine the good bits of the 1950's with the advantages of today by means of settling down in front of a satellite station which is showing repeats of 'Dixon of Dock Green'

James, when you are older and more cynical, you will start from the assumption that your flatmate's friend is probably an opinionated tosser who doesn't know what he is talking about rather than assuming that he must have thought this through in great depth.

Idealism and cynicism both have plusses and minuses - the trick is to try to balance the two. Most people tend to become more cynical as they go through life.

Although some people pick a side left v right as if it were the same as supporting a football team, some find the complexity of issues far beyond any simplistic pigeon-holing.

The danger of simplifying everything in to Guardian v Daily Mail is that people may feel that they shouldn't hold certain views for fear of being seen to be on the "wrong" side.

Scepticism of the single currency for example will have some attributing that position to Daily Mail reading Little Englander hates Frogs and Krauts. It could actually be a purely economic concern that the removal of the exchange rate buffer to adjust between economies growing at different rates would inevitably cause the problems we suffered in 1990-92 because of the ill-fated ERM and the disasters facing Greece and Portugal as they get dragged along by Germany instead of revaluing their currences.

And someone who cherishes multi-culturalism, tolerance and equality of opportunity may be very concerned at the growth of Islamic fundamentalism which could be seen to threaten these values - but risks being lumped together with the kind of people who are suspicious of all foreigners.

No, it makes you someone who reads a paper whilst having a fry-up and then decides to tell everyone about it