Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 11:26:19 GMT
Merse I was not throwing you bate, to bite on, merely pointing out, that you wanted to make the point what a realist was in your view. The fact is that people like me were real realists, when it came to the Utopian ideal's of a certain m R Roberts, while some like you were unable to sort the woods from the trees. I can fully understand, that as that was not your finest hour, you would not want to go there.  It was also not put in because I felt I was losing the argument, winning it was not my aim, purely to ask, if there should be equality in what players were paid at any given club. Also If it was proved to me that It could not work, or would in some way be harmful to the game, then I would, as you would expect, except that I was wrong and say so. Interesting you did some research and find that it has in fact been tried. So I will ask this question. Was Paul Sturrock's first rein at Plymouth Argyle, more successful than Ian Holloway's. I think it was and the club at that time as you say, was operating an equal basic salary policy. Therefore it has been proved that not only can it be done, but it can work. I rest my case your lordship. Dave R |
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AR10
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Post by AR10 on Jul 26, 2008 11:27:42 GMT
It happens even more with a national company, their wage strutures are all over the place. A new member of staff with no experience can be employed on a higher wage than someone who has been in situ for a few years. The national companies are the worst because they don't value their staff as much as what a small tight nit company would who would value the staff.
Then you get to the point where Torbay is so poorly paid in comparrison to say plymouth or exeter who are in different pay scales because they are a city & will get a min of 2 to 3k more pay because the cost of living is deemed more in a city.
You have opened up a can of worms here. I would be embarrased to put my salary on here for the job I do & then you would change your mind about the national company.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 11:41:26 GMT
TUAFC1, sadly all national company's use different rates, say for Devon, or London. My point using them as an example is based on my own experiences. In all the larger company's I have worked, those working in the same depot, doing the same job, all received the same pay.
I know my wifes own work place was not long ago taken over by a large national company. Who kept the staff on their original contracts, while new staff were put on their own new contracts. The result was that my wife who has worked there over 8 years, was getting paid less than new staff.
Those on the old contracts would not move to the new ones as they would have had to start as new employees and lose all their rights etc. In the end the old staff made enough noise and the company gave them a large increase in wages to bring them up to the same rate as the new staff. You see, there are at times a real need for wage equality.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 26, 2008 12:36:19 GMT
1 I can fully understand, that as that was not your finest hour, you would not want to go there. 2 Interesting you did some research and find that it has in fact been tried. So I will ask this question. Was Paul Sturrock's first rein at Plymouth Argyle, more successful than Ian Holloway's. I think it was and the club at that time as you say, was operating an equal basic salary policy. Therefore it has been proved that not only can it be done, but it can work.  On point one , I am happy to debate the merits of developing an eyesore of a site in a prime location on it's own thread and at an appropriate time - although perhaps right now with a good season behind us and the prospects of another good one ahead diverting attention away from that might not be appropriate. For now though, I'll concede that Roberts was a flawed personality with a dream and a business plan that spelt ruination for OUR club. I would hope that one day though, people in Torbay will stop being satisfied with poor facilities that do nothing to enhance the beautiful area that they are privileged to live amongst but are doing little or nothing to utilise and maximise to their potential. For instance, during the "Roberts debate" I heard that the local Sports Council were making moves to maximise the fact that the Olympics were here in 2012and that they were hopeful of landing some international squads who would take advantage of the area's training facilities. That's a laugh given the fact that the area possesses not one proper athletics facility, not one for swimming. what is there there for ANY Olympic discipline? Absolutely dick all, so the "potential" is non existent as are the actual facilities for a population and youth in particular who deserve much more from their elected representatives. On point two, I'll accept that Sturrock is an excellent manager, but did the club policy unintentionally lead him to decide to move to Southampton? Did it preclude them from actually converting that excellent achievement into something historically unique and managing to get into the Premiership (not the real one ) Maybe the knowledge of his methods lead him to rapidly "lose the dressing room" at Southampton? It's just possible, although I wouldn't claim to know as my interest in these clubs is not that great. One thing I do feel is that I wouldn't fall for Holloway's bull shit nor trust him as far as I could throw him. He sells this "one of the fans" image, bleeding alternately blue, green or whatever his next club will be whilst at the same time forever covering his arse and buttering his bread on another side. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 13:01:15 GMT
You see Merse you make the same mistakes and fall into the same traps every single time. What really annoys me, is that you try to generalize the whole population of Torbay.
You make this statement "I would hope that one day though, people in Torbay will stop being satisfied with poor facilities that do nothing to enhance the beautiful area that they are privileged to live amongst but are doing little or nothing to utilise and maximise to their potential."
So who says we are satisfied? not me, but one thing is true that we always want to protect the beautiful area that we are privileged to live in. Not see it ruined or turned into some City To be fair the slum area's where the London Olympics are being being held, are only being done and cleared, because of the Olympics, not because London itself or its people, have tried to improve the area. In fact it would have remained in that state for a very Long time.
We in Torbay would be happy to have all those Billions spent on having such sport facilities built here, but it is not going to happen. Robert's talk and dreams were just pie in the sky, some fool trying to get rich quick and so good at talking took in so many people, who never stopped to ask the real questions, but only could see a new stadium etc.
There is a big difference to wanting something to improve Torbay and something that would ruin the charm and natural Beauty, if you don't believe me come and have a look at the balloon on the seafront.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 26, 2008 13:41:24 GMT
I'm not talking about the stupid balloon and don't even pretend that the "Rec" is anything but a wreck hosting two deadend clubs that number their followers in hundreds if not hand fulls. If you think that playing football on the side of a roof at KGV, on appalingly surfaced rubbish tips at Barton and Clennon; having a swimming facility one metre too short for competition (how ruddy stupid is that?) no ice rink, no cycling track; no other match facility with decent floodlights except at Plainmoor is worthy of a population the size of Torbay then you are criminally negligent in consistently returning dead beat councillors to run your affairs. Where is the business head with the nous to for see the advent of 2020 cricket? Do you seriously think that can be hosted in a shack of at ground without spectaor comforts or floodlighting like the sea front eyesore that is the Rec? How can the youth of the area fulfil their potential on an even playing field without the facilities? No, don't pour scorn on those that live in the modern age; stop contemplating your own navels and staring out to sea content in the smug knowledge that it is an area of natural beauty.............even areas of natural beauty fall down and disintegrate if they are not husbanded and properly maintained as well you all know down there!
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 26, 2008 13:52:26 GMT
To be fair the slum area's where the London Olympics are being being held, are only being done and cleared, because of the Olympics, not because London itself or its people, have tried to improve the area. In fact it would have remained in that state for a very Long time. Exactly the argument for embracing enterprise and utilising sport to leave a legacy for the future..............yes, without the successful Olympic bid that would have remained the shitehole that Eastlands was prior to the Sport City development that attained the Commonwealth Games for Manchester. I WAS talking about training facilities for the Olympics Dave, not staging the ruddy games in Torbay! The Olympic Park falls under the territories of five different London boroughs..............Newham , Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Greenwich without which the pro-active co-operation of the elected representatives of the populace progress would never have been possible. Get YOUR elected representatives off their fat arses and DEMAND pro-activity or vote them out to candidates that are! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 14:01:28 GMT
Well there is any easy answer, as most are tax payers here and do the lottery ever week, maybe we could have some of the money that London gets spent on it, spent here. Or is there another way to be able to do all the improvements in our sport facilities and do you still really believe Roberts was going to deliver any of the things he promised Torbay.
Maybe if our council who have just made four staff redundant at a cost of over half a million pounds, only to be advertising for four new posts at wages being offered at £125.000, jobs nearly the same, but with a new shinny title, spent our money on the things that need improving, they would not continue to fall down.
Maybe if the money they took off local sports people and that includes footballers, was spent back on the facilities, they could be improved. As I said the slums of London are bing cleared. and great new facilities built there instead, but its not the like of you that have done anything to make that happen. So can we have some of the money spent on our part of the world please.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 14:37:08 GMT
To be fair the slum area's where the London Olympics are being being held, are only being done and cleared, because of the Olympics, not because London itself or its people, have tried to improve the area. In fact it would have remained in that state for a very Long time. [glow=yellow,2,300]Get YOUR elected representatives off their fat arses and DEMAND pro-activity or vote them out to candidates that are[/glow]! Hello, I think you will find we tried that, we had a lib Dem council, who closed all our toilets, took down our Cross at the crematorium , in case we upset any ethnic minority's , that you would struggle to find in Torbay. Paid themselves huge wage increases and so much more. We got sold a vision, an elected Mayor, a Man to stop the rot, sort out the waste, do all the improvements that Torbay was crying out for. So what did we get?, a knacked Rock Walk, an ugly balloon, plans for skyscrapers to be built on our harbours, plans to sell of all our green spaces, parking meters to be put on all streets and on our seafronts, a casino that nobody wants and plans to build 20.000 houses, in an area, stugging to cope with the population it already has. Well thats what happens when you get an estate agent for a mayor and his deputy, is a builder. Streets still dirty, harbour walks and pathways still falling into the sea and can you tell with part of our mayors plans with help to take Torbay forward, because I can't see any. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 26, 2008 14:44:40 GMT
So vote the feckers out and ensure there are candidates who WILL put THEIR mouths where YOUR money is so you can achieve that! Don't expect the wind to put the penalty away you can kick yourself!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jul 26, 2008 14:52:17 GMT
So vote the feckers out and ensure there are candidates who WILL put THEIR mouths where YOUR money is so you can achieve that! Don't expect the wind to put the penalty away you can kick yourself! He is but one man, who as the elected Mayor has all the power, we can't do anything for a few years yet. We will when we are able too, lets hope not to much of Torbay has been ruined by then. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jul 27, 2008 12:32:08 GMT
you are criminally negligent in consistently returning dead beat councillors to run your affairs. What a ridiculous thing to say Merse! By that logic "You Londoners" must all be f***ing stupid. YOU voted for Boris Johnson as Mayor! |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 27, 2008 13:07:19 GMT
you are criminally negligent in consistently returning dead beat councillors to run your affairs. What a ridiculous thing to say Merse! By that logic "You Londoners" must all be f***ing stupid. YOU voted for Boris Johnson as Mayor! Not me guv.................but my missus did on her first chance to vote in this country!  He's not dead beat though, he's flaming bonkers! NB: More people voted for Livingstone this time round than when he won last time - it was the Tory vote in the leafy outer reaches that got Boris in.  |
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On point one , I am happy to debate the merits of developing an eyesore of a site in a prime location on it's own thread and at an appropriate time - although perhaps right now with a good season behind us and the prospects of another good one ahead diverting attention away from that might not be appropriate. For now though, I'll concede that Roberts was a flawed personality with a dream and a business plan that spelt ruination for OUR club. I would hope that one day though, people in Torbay will stop being satisfied with poor facilities that do nothing to enhance the beautiful area that they are privileged to live amongst but are doing little or nothing to utilise and maximise to their potential. 
