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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2010 14:56:15 GMT
And the sorry tale continues….another manager (Jerry Gill) goes as the budget is cut…another former manager (Ian Hutchinson) may return as the merry-go-round continues…Rolls now says the debts are bigger than realised (around £900,000)…players recruited from the Dorset Premier League…the “official” best hope now a place in the Southern League (South and West)
I think that – if I were a Weymouth supporter – I’d now want to The Thing put out of its misery (as at Chester) so we could all start again. A new club might be for the best - Weymouth Town (how’s that for a name?). And, even if they're playing on a borrowed ground in the middle of nowhere in the Casterbridge and Budmouth League it's got to be more fun, surely?
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 15, 2010 15:45:43 GMT
Reading what Rolls has had to say, I do think he has got one thing spot on and that is a club needs a ground that can generate many revenue streams, if it is to survive and prosper. I know we have talked about it so many times on here, but torquay United will never move very far forward as long as it stays at Plainmoor. Anyone fancy watching the boys at Clennon Valley? Andover is handier for me. We might get World Cup status there. I tend to agree with Barton that the long drawn out state of affairs for Weymouth supporters must really have taken its toll now. It seems the property developers will eventually now have their way on the sea view site. I hope they're able to regroup and form something out of this mess to follow in the coming seasons. There but for the grace again.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 15, 2010 22:54:08 GMT
I think that – if I were a Weymouth supporter – I’d now want to The Thing put out of its misery (as at Chester) so we could all start again. Friend of this forum Stewart McG has now got to that point I think - and things most be unbearably rotten for the son of "Mr Weymouth FC" to think the unthinkable. The main difference between Chester and Weymouth is that the Deva Stadium is council-owned. As a result, the winding-up of the rotten club is a defeat for the villain of the peace and the new Chester should be able to lease the Deva and get back to Conference level within a few years. The land at Weymouth is the key to that whole sorry saga and the winding-up of the club would probably represent a resounding victory for the villain of the peace with a new phoenix left homeless and with no immediate prospect of a decent standard of football in the town. Three years ago - when we feared the worst - I always thought that as long as Plainmoor stood there would be at least semi-pro football in Torquay. If Plainmoor went, we would be finished. For those interested in football politics the link below will be of interest - it shows the intolerable stress that can be placed on an ordinary fan who picks up the poisoned chalice of trying to help. I'm sure Rob will recognise the description of our mutual friend Kevin Rye - both in the good points and in the bad points. dl.dropbox.com/u/5178307/Swimming%20in%20a%20Tank%20of%20Sharks%20PDF.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 13:13:06 GMT
Jon’s point about ground ownership – and the nature of those who own the land – is a good one and probably explains why it has been worth persevering with trying to save Weymouth FC. Ultimately a football club needs a home and – in the absence of suitable alternatives in the town – the current ground is key to everything.
But - unless there is an unexpected positive development - the reality is that things appear much worse than when the latest series of crises broke around twelve months ago. The players have gone, the debts have risen and charlatans continue to come and go. At this rate, in a year’s time, Weymouth will be struggling – if they’re lucky – in the same league as Taunton, North Leigh and Andover.
It hardly seems worth the effort. The stadium may have to be surrendered to the sharks but – if that happens – it could potentially jeopardise any new club’s legitimacy (as well as prospects). A new Weymouth playing at, say, Bridport might initially take over the mantle. But what if another group of supporters put together an alternative club playing at a lower level – in rather modest surroundings - in the town itself? Which club would you support in the circumstances? Which becomes the successor club?
Not an easy one to answer but, to all intents and purposes, that’s what appears to be happening in Scarborough. Scarborough Athletic got off the blocks quickly thanks to the Seadog Trust, retained the colours and managed to attract considerable numbers of the former club’s support even though they were playing at Bridlington. But now there’s a Scarborough Town – also wearing red and backed by supporters of the old club – playing in the town and seeking promotion to the Northern League. Its legitimacy is partly based on links to the academy set-up at the old club. Nothing like a bit of local rivalry to fill the void, I suppose...
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Post by chrish on Mar 16, 2010 17:53:18 GMT
Jon’s point about ground ownership – and the nature of those who own the land – is a good one and probably explains why it has been worth persevering with trying to save Weymouth FC. Ultimately a football club needs a home and – in the absence of suitable alternatives in the town – the current ground is key to everything. But - unless there is an unexpected positive development - the reality is that things appear much worse than when the latest series of crises broke around twelve months ago. The players have gone, the debts have risen and charlatans continue to come and go. At this rate, in a year’s time, Weymouth will be struggling – if they’re lucky – in the same league as Taunton, North Leigh and Andover. It hardly seems worth the effort. The stadium may have to be surrendered to the sharks but – if that happens – it could potentially jeopardise any new club’s legitimacy (as well as prospects). A new Weymouth playing at, say, Bridport might initially take over the mantle. But what if another group of supporters put together an alternative club playing at a lower level – in rather modest surroundings - in the town itself? Which club would you support in the circumstances? Which becomes the successor club? Not an easy one to answer but, to all intents and purposes, that’s what appears to be happening in Scarborough. Scarborough Athletic got off the blocks quickly thanks to the Seadog Trust, retained the colours and managed to attract considerable numbers of the former club’s support even though they were playing at Bridlington. But now there’s a Scarborough Town – also wearing red and backed by supporters of the old club – playing in the town and seeking promotion to the Northern League. Its legitimacy is partly based on links to the academy set-up at the old club. Nothing like a bit of local rivalry to fill the void, I suppose... It makes you think that if Mr Bateson actually managed to buy Plainmoor from the council on all those occasions then he could've sold us down the river way before Chris Roberts turned up on the scene. In a way it's a very good thing that the council still own Plainmoor. At least it stops idiots from wanting to invest in a club just to sell it off piece by piece. On the downside what it does is stop the ability of the club to be able to sell Plainmoor to property developers and set up shop in another location with better facilities, but there in essence is also the upside. New owners may be able to run the club into the ground but at least they'll never be able to sell plainmoor and run away.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 16, 2010 18:33:20 GMT
dl.dropbox.com/u/5178307/Swimming%20in%20a%20Tank%20of%20Sharks%20PDF.pdfCracking read that, Jon. How depressing at the same time, though. I wouldn't blame Kevin for his approach in the circumstances. The concerns about Terras fans not accepting anyone standing as representative of the fans, whilst they scratch their arses is one we can surely empathise with, though. I doubt it is that rare, mind.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 16, 2010 18:55:03 GMT
Until Torbay can rid itself of Nick Bye and can ensure the next elected mayor is not his clone, I would have to disagree with you Chris and wished Bateson had bought the ground and we owned it now. You can bet if Bateson had bought it when he had wanted to we would not have the old grandstand still, but no matter how long our lease has got left at Plainmoor, I don’t feel we are ever safe from being moved out as long as the Nick Byes of this world have power in Torbay.
He would have gone along with Roberts plans if he felt Roberts could have delivered them and while it would have been easier for that to happen as Roberts owned the club and therefore its destiny, if Bye wanted Plainmoor he would have it.
He got his way with the ugly balloon and believes he will get his way up on Babbacombe Downs with the fish restaurant that despite fierce opposition has already gone pass the planning stage. At the beginning I was in favour of the restaurant but then I did not know the downs had covenants on them and I hope this time the Cary Estate has the balls to stand up to Nick Bye and not cave in as they did on the balloon site.
I also thought it would have the same footprint as the toilet block it would replace, but no it has a much larger footprint and will be so much higher and will require a road put in to service it.
Nick Bye would sell his grandmother if it meant he could then give public land away for free and charge only a peppercorn rent to any company who would build something in Torbay, it’s the estate agent in him I’m afraid. If a developer came to him and wanted Plainmoor then if it was something Bye wanted here in the Bay he would get to work straight away to get us out of plainmoor and I firmly believe he would.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 16, 2010 18:59:21 GMT
The only flaw in your plan, Dave, is that if the Ground had become a Club asset, it might well have been borrowed against by either Bateson, Roberts or some other nutcase.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 16, 2010 22:31:46 GMT
I would have to disagree with you Chris and wished Bateson had bought the ground and we owned it now. You can bet if Bateson had bought it when he had wanted to we would not have the old grandstand still As Rob says, Roberts would have continued to lose money hand over fist, would have borrowed against the freehold and we would have ended up with the ground sold off to repay the debts. At least Mr Saddler might have got his money back.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 16, 2010 22:41:55 GMT
dl.dropbox.com/u/5178307/Swimming%20in%20a%20Tank%20of%20Sharks%20PDF.pdfCracking read that, Jon. How depressing at the same time, though. I wouldn't blame Kevin for his approach in the circumstances. The concerns about Terras fans not accepting anyone standing as representative of the fans, whilst they scratch their arses is one we can surely empathise with, though. I doubt it is that rare, mind. I think we all know that those who shout loudest that something must be done are nowhere to be seen when something actually needs doing. The bit about Kevin that rang a bell with me is his unwaivering belief that fan ownership is always the answer in the face of any evidence to the contrary. Connor knew that the Terras Trust just did not have sufficient resources and volunteers to actually run the club itself. I witnessed the same situation at our club. I do remember one meeting where Chris Fleet turned up delighted that Kevin had given him a full list of TUFC shareholders. I spiked the mood a little by saying that I already had that information - but the problem was that 85% of the shares were held in a block. Sometimes it's horrible having to be the realist rather than the idealist.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 17, 2010 18:51:43 GMT
The only flaw in your plan, Dave, is that if the Ground had become a Club asset, it might well have been borrowed against by either Bateson, Roberts or some other nutcase. Flawed and not put over the way I intended as I was really on about the ground being owned now by the club because of what I posted about Mr Bye. I had Bateson in my head as he was the person who had approached the council to buy the ground when he did own the club. Thinking about that I would not have thought Bateson would have borrowed against the assets if he had managed to buy the ground from the council. He was running the club within its means and I can't think of any reason he would do that. Would Roberts have even taken over the club it the ground was owned by the club, the asking price would have been so much higher I would expect and as he was only using the club as a vehicle to get the Rec site would owning the ground that has covenants on it, not be a stumbling block to his plans? I don't know myself but I would have thought it would have been.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Mar 17, 2010 23:04:03 GMT
While talking about Bateson, Roberts etc it had me thinking that in our history room we had have many threads on past managers but not one thread that showed all the club owners from the day we were founded.
I'm not sure how far back it would be possible to go but it would be great if our history boys could make such a thread and possibly included such information about how successful we were under each owner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2010 23:23:19 GMT
I'm not sure how far back it would be possible to go but it would be great if our history boys could make such a thread and possibly included such information about how successful we were under each owner. Well, we may know a man who can help (not that we're setting him a task). I guess Mike Bateson was unique in that he was the only sole owner (with the possible exception of the Webb and Roberts fiascos when ownership was clouded in mystery). For the rest of the time control of the club - to the best of my knowledge - has been held collectively by a number of individuals (as now). So, in this sense, I guess we might be talking chairmen rather than owners or maybe plotting eras between major share tranactions (as far as these where ever publicised). And I suppose the role/significance/power of the chairman has varied over the years: sometimes a majority shareholder (not sure if this was ever the case other than MB?); sometimes a true leader of a group; other times something of a figurehead; on occasions a marionette.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Mar 18, 2010 9:53:06 GMT
The only flaw in your plan, Dave, is that if the Ground had become a Club asset, it might well have been borrowed against by either Bateson, Roberts or some other nutcase. Flawed and not put over the way I intended as I was really on about the ground being owned now by the club because of what I posted about Mr Bye. I had Bateson in my head as he was the person who had approached the council to buy the ground when he did own the club. Thinking about that I would not have thought Bateson would have borrowed against the assets if he had managed to buy the ground from the council. He was running the club within its means and I can't think of any reason he would do that. Would Roberts have even taken over the club it the ground was owned by the club, the asking price would have been so much higher I would expect and as he was only using the club as a vehicle to get the Rec site would owning the ground that has covenants on it, not be a stumbling block to his plans? I don't know myself but I would have thought it would have been. I see what you are saying, but another Roberts or that very one, could have persuaded another Sadler, or that very one, that the extra punt was worth taking as there was so much of a financial guarantee that things could not go wrong in the form of a stadium plot. And as Jon says, it would have assisted in paying the pension back and buying the nutcase more time to properly cripple us. Council will do just fine for us, in my opinion. You can vote them out, at least. I appreciate you don't like Nick Bye. I have no first hand experience of him day to day, but would not vote for his colours if I had the choice locally. Yellow should be the only choice in Torbay. ;)Times change, but Roberts types are around during all of those times. The stories at other Clubs as well as our own serve to remind us of that. On the Terras Trust article, I agree that SD can be seen as somewhat utopian ideals. And would expect Kevin to continually preach that mantra as a professional and in those circumstances. Connor also did the right thing by pointing out repeatedly the practical difficulties. A crude form of checks and balances? I'll say again, though, it's a must read. I think you would probably get similar problems with us, if, heaven forbid, we ever had someone trying to land grab us. But someone has to keep it going. And George Rolls was never going to be that person for poor Weymouth. (PS: I wasn't suggesting Bateson was a nutcase, by the way.)
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Mar 19, 2010 0:55:36 GMT
I agree that SD can be seen as somewhat utopian ideals. And would expect Kevin to continually preach that mantra as a professional and in those circumstances. Connor also did the right thing by pointing out repeatedly the practical difficulties. A crude form of checks and balances? Indeed, Rob. Without ideas and enthusiasm, you perish and die. But 90%+ of ideas are either useless or unworkable. What any organisation wants is an ideas man and someone to sift out and spike the 90% and dot the Is and cross the Ts on the 10%.
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