Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 22, 2009 0:47:22 GMT
We keep hearing and saying the same things, does Bucks know is best team. It has seemed to me that when one team he picks wins, he is afraid to change it for the next game.benyon did well in our last home game, but you have to question his stat in the Kettering game, it really needed to have Green or Christie up front as they are much stronger.
So if Bucks does not know his very best team do you? who would be one your must start list and what formation would suit them best.
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Post by jmgull on Feb 22, 2009 1:16:30 GMT
....Its a good question, i cant remember a season when it is so hard to pick our best team. Maybe its down to the strength of the squad....more likely its that we're just inconsistent Here's my effort Bevan Mansell Robertson Hodges Nicholson Carayol Wroe Hargreaves Dsane Sills Green Bench Christie Benyon Thompson Woods Carlisle Away from home i would replace Green with Thompson and play the 4-4-1-1 that has proved so succesful this season.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 22, 2009 1:23:09 GMT
Looks good Justin, just wonder about Dsane who really is not doing it for me lately, having Robertson at the back should mean we would not need to keep bringing Sills back for corners etc, sure merse would agree that playing 4-4-1-1 away from home would be the correct formation.
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Post by jmgull on Feb 22, 2009 1:52:18 GMT
...I would ditch Dsane if we had a natural left sided attacking player with pace.
As we haven't, i've gone with him as at least he scores a few.
He's a better bet than our other wingers on the left imo.
You are right though, that position sticks out like a sore thumb.
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 22, 2009 9:32:59 GMT
Bevan Mansell Robertson Hodges Nicholson Carayol Wroe Hargreaves Dsane Sills Green Bench Christie Benyon Thompson Woods Carlisle Away from home i would replace Green with Thompson and play the 4-4-1-1 that has proved so succesful this season. My selection too and my thoughts on certain away games too. I really do think that when you have such precious talent and natural ability as we have with Green and Caryol you HAVE to show patience, persistence and a little tolerance for them to make the huge adjustment from development football where they have learned their precocious skills to cut throat FIRST TEAM football that is played for bonus money and therefore EVERYBODY is under pressure to produce results from the manager down. This cannot be achieved as easily if significant numbers of fans get their Saturday entertainment from goading and insulting these youngsters, and it really makes me quite angry to witness this going on both in football grounds and on the Internet boards. The issue of Dsane is one of appreciation of just what the manager is asking of him in my opinion, and as far as I could ascertain yesterday he was once again doing his job; tucking in and protecting his own fullback when we didn't have possession and showing himself for an option to whoever had the ball when we broke forward and getting at his opposition fullback by getting inside him and looking to split the central defenders ahead of him through either delivering the ball to a team mate or running at them himself. Roscoe Dsane is NOT a left winger, he is (in my opinion) a former striker who's lost his initial yards of pace through injury and has had to adapt to another game. The most comfortable looking player when on the left flank is Caryol, but to me; he looks much better on the right. The issue of all the wild shooting is I believe a mantra instilled into them at the moment to "have a go when you see the white of their eyes" by the management frustrated at the low number of chances we are converting. Perhaps they are saying to the lads "if you don't buy a ticket you won't win the lottery"We can't have it both ways, if they become over cautious and too pernickety of what is a shooting opportunity and what isn't - we collectively deride them for "not having a go!"
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Feb 22, 2009 10:00:49 GMT
Bevan Mansell Robertson Hodges Nicholson Carayol Wroe Hargreaves Dsane Sills Green Bench Christie Benyon Thompson Woods Carlisle I would certainly be happy if that were the eleven picked for Tuesday night. Carayol and Green seem to have come out of the last game with some credit and it would be good to see that rewarded. If we continue to have ineffective supply down the wings, though, I would like to see a 4-3-3 with Thompson, Wroe and Hargeaves in the middle. Benyon would get my third striker slot. I believe this was tried with good effect away to Wrexham earlier in the season but ditched.
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Post by capitalgull on Feb 22, 2009 10:06:43 GMT
Merse, I know where you are coming from with regards to Dsane, but to be able to do that job, he has to do the following, none of which he managed with any success on Saturday.
1. Pass the ball to one of his own team-mates - I would hate to see his passing stats from yesterday....they could be embrassing for the guy.
2. Do some of the work you suggest to help his full-back. Yesterday he spent most of his time looking to the heavens for some kind of divine help and cantering into no man's land.
3. Get some close control; might help to have the ball he is trying to control at his feet rather than have to go chasing his own poor control five yards away giving defenders time to close him down.
4. At least stay on his feet - he fell over three times yesterday under no pressure from anyone, twice allowing Kettering to forge forwards and have shots on Bevan. New boots required perhaps? And don't blame the pitch for those - they were early on before it started cutting up.
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Feb 22, 2009 11:08:06 GMT
Dave Thomas spoke about his with regards to Benyon yesterday - that it seems that the pressure to get instant results is preventing "us" from having patience to develop these players and learn the game. Compare this with Burton Albion as they romp into the league - a fairly settled side without the weight of expectation of promotion and instant results.
I think we have very much a different approach to getting out of the league compared to Exeter. They built upon some excellent young players that they developed young players from their youth system - George Friend, Danny Seabourne & Dean Moxey and also young players rejected from other clubs in Mackie, and Paul Jones. We have basically had to pay a premium to get experienced players assembled in the space of just a few weeks - with a sprinkling of young players. The likes of Sills, Hargreaves, Nicholson, Phillips, Todd surely didn't come cheap and we must have been well subsidised by our Directors and the Consortium (as I'm sure we are being to greater extent at the moment due to poor crowds). Surely the lines of business that our backers are in mean that they are feeling the pinch of the recession and next season is going to be far tougher to attract players than it was over the past couple of summers.
Benyon (who I'm sure will move to a bigger club in the summer), Carayol, Green, Ellis, Robertson and Stevens have not seen a significant run in the team. Once they seem to indicate a progression they are on the bench and without knowing why (and neither would I expect to - that is not how a football club works) it is often mystifying to the average supporter.
Come next season, I believe that we will have a different "mix" to the players within the squad - it will be younger players rather than "established" conference players that will be making-up the bulk of the team. That is something that I am in some ways looking forward to. We already have a core of decent players in Bevan, Mansell, Hodges, Sills, Todd and possibly Woods? Green, Carayol, Ellis and Wroe are also under contract and I believe they have a lot to prove (as has Carlisle) and develop. The only experienced players that I would be disappointed not to retain are Hargreaves and Nicholson. Adams and Dsane are coming to the end of their deals and surely wont be retained. As for Christie, I'm not being derogatory as to his ability, but I would rather have seen a left winger like Ryan Williams arrive at the club to give some balance and create more chances for the strikers that we already do have.
Back to the topic of the Original Poster............ I'm not sure what the "best team" is (other than it hasnt been us too many times recently!) - and even whether it is a good thing to have "best team" as such. Last season you could more or less name the players that would start every week - even when their form suffered there were several players who would never be in danger of being dropped. I guess it is "horses for courses" every match.
For what it is worth, I think we have a 50 / 50 chance of making the play-offs as things stand - and a 30% chance if we do make it. That's just being realistic. 4 wins in the last 10 or 11 BSP games isn't good enough and last season when we started our post-Christmas slump we had a far bigger cushion between us and the play-off chasing clubs. The only real hope for me is that I remind myself that Exeter went through some very inconsistent patches before finding the right formula and they made it up.
**EDIT** Agree with all he points you make about Dsane, Capitalgull (from the numerous times I have seen him this season), although there have been a few games hat I have ben impressed with is contribution. The fact remains that he is 29 and probably isn't going to develop much more and he is probably on "football league wages" and his contribution to all-round play isn't hugely inspiring. That said, he does pop-up with the odd goal.
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Fonda
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Post by Fonda on Feb 22, 2009 11:24:21 GMT
I'm not sure what our best 11 is, but i do believe now is the time to change the formation - for home games at least.
We've stuck pretty rigidly to 4-4-2 this season, despite an obvious lack of goals. We had a brief flirtation with 4-4-1-1, which proved effective enough - but for me that's a formation for away games when you expect to be under a bit of pressure.
What we need now is a set-up which provides some goals - or at least creates some opportunities and which simultaneously demonstrates the manager's confidence in the depth of his squad. I (along with others) have alluded to it in other posts, but surely now is the time to experiment with 4-3-3.
The fact is our 'wide-men' have struggled to deliver any kind of quality or consistency. We have 4 'wingers' (well 3, plus one convert), and none of them have a left foot they're comfortable using. Is that not considered a problem to the manager? Considering the amount of possession we enjoy (in home games especially), we ought to create more. Unfortunatly the wingers in the side aren't proving effective and those waiting in the wings (no pun intended)haven't done enough to force their way in. Stevens for me is still most effective from the bench, and whist Carayol provides moments of quality, he's inconsistent at best (and none of them are able to play on the left!)
Whilst none of our wingers have done enough to actually deserve to be in the side, we have more strikers wothy of selection than there are places in the team. Sills is the focal point, Green has great pace which creates it's own problems for defences; and Benyon is the finisher that has most chance of solving our goalscoring problems. So perhaps now is the time to get them on the pitch together to see what they can do? With the way we're playing currently, we have nothing to lose by giving it a try.
-------------------------Bevan Manse------Woods-------------Robbo----------Nicho ----------Wroe-------Greavsie------Thompson------- --------Benyon----------Sills--------------Green
Bench: Hodges, Carayol, Carlisle, Dsane, Christie
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Post by capitalgull on Feb 22, 2009 11:41:53 GMT
I'm with you on the formation Shane. As soon as we went 4-3-3 yesterday, albeit in 'panic and let's get forward as much as we can to equalise' mode, we looked a different side.
BUT I don't see Benyon as part of it. I'd have Christie in for him after the brief glimpse I saw yesterday. Some tellingly good work, on the right of a three, with Sills in the middle and Green on the left. A couple of really good flicks, always in the direction of a team-mate, some lovely knockdowns, and hopefully when his fitness is there, he'll be able to do the same for 90 minutes.
Same team you put with Christie for Benyon would be mine.
Funniest chant of yesterday as well, in response to the 'fat barsteward' ones directed at the shuffling Mr Christie...
To the tune of 1-0 to the Arse-eh-nal. 'Shut up, if you can't be nice; shut up, if you can't be nice!'
Made me laugh anyway!!
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Fonda
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Post by Fonda on Feb 22, 2009 11:47:34 GMT
I've always been a fan of Benyon, and believe him to be the most natural finisher at the club. He hits the target with a far higher percentage of his chances than anyone else, so for that reason would advocate his inclusion. Added to that though, in a 4-3-3 formation, there is a great reliance on the two 'wide' strikers to work hard and cover a lot of ground when we don;t have the ball. I'm not convinced Christie (yet) has the fitness to do that part of the job well enough. As well as being a decent striker, Benyon is always prepared to 'put in a good shift'.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 22, 2009 12:00:31 GMT
I'm with you Shane of the formation and your team selection except one and yes sorry that is Benyon, but he could still have a part to play in our games. Christie is much stronger, has far better control and as Andy pointed out can do the clever flicks that will find the likes of Green and Sills.
I firmly believe that Green would get more chances in a game having the clever play of Christie feeding him in and all will be needed then is to make sure we finish the chances created.
Cristie may not be fit enough to last the whole game and remain as effective, but by then you would hope that the extra power and cleverness he and Green would have up front, that we would be in control and more importantly winning the game.
Time then to bring on Benyon, who in my view has always made more of an impact coming on later as a sub, his fresh legs and willingness to work hard will give the tired defenders even more of a problem and Benyon's lack of any real physical presence will not matter so much.
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merse
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Post by merse on Feb 22, 2009 12:31:44 GMT
Dave Thomas spoke about his with regards to Benyon yesterday - that it seems that the pressure to get instant results is preventing "us" from having patience to develop these players and learn the game. Compare this with Burton Albion as they romp into the league - a fairly settled side without the weight of expectation of promotion and instant results. I think we have very much a different approach to getting out of the league compared to Exeter. They built upon some excellent young players that they developed young players from their youth system I think your post "Oh to be", is right on the money if I might say so. Whilst Burton, Aldershot (in their time) Exeter, Morecombe Dagenham and Wimbledon (will when they get here) are prepared to take their time and really build something whilst retaining the support of their fans both numerically and financially, OUR fan base take it on themselves to ape York City's and hysterically demand instant repatriation to a level that is not really that much better than the one we find ourselves and a damned less competitive. To me it's akin to going with with players of repute (but the wage demand that goes with it) and failing to recognise that "Rome Wasn't Built In A Day" and saying promotion fast and to hell with the consequences. Our club was totally denuded as a footballing entity by Bateson when he destroyed the youth system after running it at a disgracefully low standard by employing his son-in-law to head it up where previously we had the quality of people like Kevin Hodges, Steve McCall, Paul Compton and even before that Bobby Baxter - experienced masters of their craft who had the ability to take a young prospect under their wing and really teach him the ropes of professional football at OUR level and the particular demands that would put on them as opposed to the very different demands at much bigger and more structured professional football clubs. When the current administration came in it was being said privately that it would take 5-6 years to put this club on a proper footing as regards facilities, structure and a proper football producing culture that had all been passed off as "luxuries" by the old regime. The old regime saw visits to opponents as little more than social events centred around the bars of boardrooms, structured away travel for the team around the travelling preferences of the directors and obviously they took little or no interest in treating such trips as opportunities to listen and observe how other small clubs went about their daily life as members of the lowest echelons of the Football League. Consequently they learned nothing of Dagenham's excellent production line from local talent and recruitment from levels of football lower than their own. Nothing of Exeter city's admirable commitment to their youth policy despite all the monetary nightmares they had to endure. Not a thing from Morecombe and Burton allowing their manager's a realistic time span in which to properly build something. If I hear one more bellowing imbecile or brainless idiot screaming that it's "promotion or bust" this season I'll need a straight jacket.The stupidity of decrying our FA Trophy campaign of last season and our FA Cup one of this, as an obstacle to promotion is both futile and myopic. As is the dramatic difference in loyalty and understanding of the support of Exeter City and our ever dwindling numbers and as ever it is the patient ones who are reaping the rewards. Look, put simply; football for a supporter is about getting enjoyment from it not engaging in some ritualistic self flagellation and bemoaning one's way through the current situation. As I recently said to those types: you never know what fate has in store for you, so you might already have watched your last Torquay United match so you might as well have bloody enjoyed it!
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Fonda
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Post by Fonda on Feb 22, 2009 12:42:12 GMT
Did any of those clubs have any other option than to 'take things slowly' though? It seems to me they were all in the position of having to do what they could in terms of bringing youth players through rather than trying to attain 'instant success' - and their fans would have been aware of that. Had they been in a position to try and get out of here at the earliest opportunity, is it realistic to think they'd have rejected it? Our situation was different from the outset. The consortium arrived with the intention of making amends for everything that had gone before them, as quickly as possible. They provided the funds which most other clubs in this division can only dream of, and with that came an expectancy. Whilst most supporters understood there would likely be a period of consolidation, by the time we'd created the squad and started so promisingly, the expectancy was there.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Feb 22, 2009 13:36:38 GMT
How about 3-4-3 as per the Wrexham game (Maybe tufc01 will back me up?)
Just play Wroe and Hargreaves in midfield with Mansell and Nicholson pushing up. Three central defenders with Hodges on the left, Robertson on the right and Woods in the middle. This would allow Green Sills and Benyon/Christie to play up front.
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