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Post by plainmoorpete on Apr 5, 2024 18:35:57 GMT
Thanks for the link Rags. Pretty basic purely for revenue purposes etc though. That's true, but it has suddenly dawned on me that shareholders might get more detailed accounts. All we need is one of them to tell us if they did, and possibly share some of the detail. What shareholders? Osborne owned over 92% of the shares.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Apr 5, 2024 21:38:59 GMT
What shareholders? Osborne owned over 92% of the shares. Unless he owns 100% there will be other shareholders. Each should be entitled to receive a copy of the annual accounts. On 11 Sep 2012 there were over 700 shareholders who held 200 shares or fewer each, over 200 of which only held one share each. Not all of those shares transferred to Riviera Stadium Limited. Those minority shareholders may not have any power but they still have rights.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 11:41:23 GMT
It is worth remembering that the route of paying creditors x pence in the pound, used by so many League clubs, is NOT open to us.
FA rules decree that in order to keep our place in the League system all creditors have to be paid in full.
People should bear that in mind when thinking the incoming owners will have cash to splash.
Unauthorised loans from directors are specifically EXCLUDED from this requirement.
When you think about it, this is a very fair rule. Companies that have provided goods and services to the football club in good faith have done nothing wrong and deserve to be paid whereas directors who knowingly run football clubs in an unsustainable manner do so at their own risk.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 11:57:01 GMT
I thought we’d know the successful bidder today. So did I! So did I! Very glad that people with far more ability and experience than me are handling this process!
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petef
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Post by petef on Apr 6, 2024 11:59:22 GMT
What shareholders? Osborne owned over 92% of the shares. Unless he owns 100% there will be other shareholders. Each should be entitled to receive a copy of the annual accounts. On 11 Sep 2012 there were over 700 shareholders who held 200 shares or fewer each, over 200 of which only held one share each. Not all of those shares transferred to Riviera Stadium Limited. Those minority shareholders may not have any power but they still have rights. On you accounts link Rags it shows the full list of shareholders at that time in - Filing history - 2022 Confirmation Statement 53 pages. How relevant or valid that is I have no idea.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Apr 6, 2024 12:49:22 GMT
On your accounts link Rags it shows the full list of shareholders at that time in - Filing history - 2022 Confirmation Statement 53 pages. How relevant or valid that is I have no idea. Well there we go! Back in 2012 I copied all of them into a spreadsheet which took me ages to format. I don't feel like doing that again but all the small shareholders on that Confirmation Statement will more than likely match my list from 2012.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 13:13:18 GMT
On your accounts link Rags it shows the full list of shareholders at that time in - Filing history - 2022 Confirmation Statement 53 pages. How relevant or valid that is I have no idea. Well there we go! Back in 2012 I copied all of them into a spreadsheet which took me ages to format. I don't feel like doing that again but all the small shareholders on that Confirmation Statement will more than likely match my list from 2012. Your spreadsheet will include Mr G. Johnson. A possible cause of the Gary Johnson owns shares conspiracy theory!
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Apr 6, 2024 13:19:11 GMT
Your spreadsheet will include Mr G. Johnson. A possible cause of the Gary Johnson owns shares conspiracy theory! It does - 2 whole shares, while a W Johnson owns 3...
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 13:33:10 GMT
It is worth remembering that the route of paying creditors x pence in the pound, used by so many League clubs, is NOT open to us. FA rules decree that in order to keep our place in the League system all creditors have to be paid in full. People should bear that in mind when thinking the incoming owners will have cash to splash. Unauthorised loans from directors are specifically EXCLUDED from this requirement. When you think about it, this is a very fair rule. Companies that have provided goods and services to the football club in good faith have done nothing wrong and deserve to be paid whereas directors who knowingly run football clubs in an unsustainable manner do so at their own risk. Brett Pilnick on Radio Devon spouting ill-informed nonsense on this subject.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 13:38:37 GMT
Your spreadsheet will include Mr G. Johnson. A possible cause of the Gary Johnson owns shares conspiracy theory! It does - 2 whole shares, while a W Johnson owns 3... .. and he was living in Ellacombe Church Road when he invested his £2. That was a lot of money for a working man back in the 1920s!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Apr 6, 2024 13:39:54 GMT
It is worth remembering that the route of paying creditors x pence in the pound, used by so many League clubs, is NOT open to us. FA rules decree that in order to keep our place in the League system all creditors have to be paid in full. People should bear that in mind when thinking the incoming owners will have cash to splash. Unauthorised loans from directors are specifically EXCLUDED from this requirement. When you think about it, this is a very fair rule. Companies that have provided goods and services to the football club in good faith have done nothing wrong and deserve to be paid whereas directors who knowingly run football clubs in an unsustainable manner do so at their own risk. At least settled in full. Cannot see the club being purchased before the final home game within a fortnight. With 2 months of nil or little income thereafter, cannot see the administrators wanting to remain in control for long after this date either. Just getting to July is going to take a huge injection of cash.
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petef
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Post by petef on Apr 6, 2024 14:08:24 GMT
An interesting post copied and pasted from TUFF from AJW, experienced in football club insolvency. My fears of Osbourne attempting to recoup as much of his investment is still a reality it seems.
Post from AJW on the TFF As some will notice, this is my first post. I am not a TUFC fan but am a non league football fan. I am not here to gloat as it is not good to see any club in trouble and the people who suffer the most emotionally are the fans, who like me want no more than a team to support and an enjoyable match day experience.
My reason for registering for the forum was that I have experience of dealing with football clubs in an insolvency process and the National League when one of the member clubs enters an insolvency process. Firstly dealing with the administration, I can only imaginem some severe cost cutting by the Administrators. Any debts incurred during the administration rank as a first charge against the receipts in the administration. They rank before any fees due to the administrators, as administrators like to get paid, they are unlikely to be prepared to see the losses continuing on the scale that they have been.
In an administration, the administrators have 14 days from the date of their apppointment to decide which if any employment contracts they adopt. If they continuing employing an individual beyond the 14 period, the payment of wages becomes an expense of the administration as against an unsecured claim. I personally would expect a number of staff, including playing staff to be let go within the next 14 days.
For a football club this is the worst time of year to enter administration. Revenue is about to dry up with only two home games left this season. Football clubs normally get through the close season from season ticket sales and sponsors paying a sizeable chunk of the sponsorship money. Due to the uncertainty of how the club will come out of Administration most sponsors are not going to pay the until this is resolved. Season ticket sales are also problematical. Will people buy a season ticket not knowing where or indeed whether the club will be playing next season. Often card companies will not release the season ticket money, where the payment was made by card, to the club due to the risk of them being liable for charge backs if the club fails to fulfil its fixtures.
Whilst in theory the administrators decide who to sell to, due to the football authorities requiring all debts settled or an agreement with the creditors before sanctioning a transfer of ownership, this alters the position quite dramatically. From what I understand CO is the largest creditor by some distance. If he is not agreeable to doing a deal on his debt with a potential purchaser, the transfer of ownership will not be approved by the FA or the league. This means that often the only purchaser the administrators can proceed with is the one that offers CO the highest percentage of his debt.
The next problem is the National League who are tough to say the least in this situation. There first concern is to have 24 teams in each of the three divisions complete the season and not fold during the season. At the very least they normally seek a bond being given to the League to enable it to make good any loss to clubs by losing a home fixture ot travelling to a game, whose result is later expunged. Any bond is likely to be approaching, if not in excess, of a 6 figure sum. Who will pay this bond?
If the club does not meet any requirements laid down by the league, the likely outcome is expulsion from the league. Throughout the football period leagues seem keen to pass the problem of financially troubled clubs down to the next level below. Expulsion from the league, if is going to occur will occur at the AGM. The options are therefore to get a deal completed and approved by 19 June or find the money for a bond by 19 June. Getting any sale approved by that date is nigh on impossible. From my past experience Southern League football, or no football, arethe most likely outcomes.
Hopefully, a deal is virtually done in principle. This at least gives the club a fighting chance of avoiding expulsion from the league.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 6, 2024 14:18:47 GMT
An interesting post copied and pasted from TUFF from AJW, experienced in football club insolvency. My fears of Osbourne attempting to recoup as much of his investment is still a reality it seems. No Pete. See my post re unauthorised director loans. By the way, I am reliably informed that the National League AGM is on June 8 - unless the date has been changed recently. Is there a link to somewhere suggesting June 19? I cannot think that we will be in administration on June 8 anyway. We will either be under new ownership or we will have been liquidated.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Apr 6, 2024 14:25:02 GMT
It’s a good post Pete. The one area I disagree with and as Jon posted above, directors unauthorized loans are excluded from these requirements and I suspect CO will have very little involvement or say into recouping his investment which is literally at the bottom of the pile. I think we are all hoping that administration will be relatively short and sweet as there are a couple of bids on the table and it makes no sense to not progress with one of them ASAP.
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hector
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Post by hector on Apr 6, 2024 19:25:46 GMT
An interesting post copied and pasted from TUFF from AJW, experienced in football club insolvency. My fears of Osbourne attempting to recoup as much of his investment is still a reality it seems. No Pete. See my post re unauthorised director loans. By the way, I am reliably informed that the National League AGM is on June 8 - unless the date has been changed recently. Is there a link to somewhere suggesting June 19? I cannot think that we will be in administration on June 8 anyway. We will either be under new ownership or we will have been liquidated. I’m somewhat reassured to read your take on that as I read the post by AJW and was concerned to think Osborne still might turn the screw. It would be fascinating to know how we have lost £100k per month. Surely that squad of players aren’t the reason as we haven’t been able to fill the bench on many occasions. What have TUFC been spending money on that say, Gateshead or Dagenham or Maidenhead with much smaller crowds, haven’t been?
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