Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 20, 2008 6:17:35 GMT
After reading Merses latest excellent post(in so why are you a tufc fan) he raises some very interesting points about the current financial climate.
What disposable income people are going to have, is going to be less than last year. So how will it effect the club and will you have to look at the cost of going to games.
I do believe results on the pitch, but more importantly the entertainment factor, will play a big part on the gates. While we can't really expect the team, to play like Brazil. the team do really need to play a more attractive style of football, Watching hoof ball will do nothing to keep those who have to watch the pennies and those we call the floating fans keep returning.
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Post by chesneygull on Jun 20, 2008 12:07:24 GMT
Valid point.
I will have to start paying for my son in the new season so, with that and the extra adult price, I will be shelling out £22 per game compared to £15 last year. I live near Exeter (I know couldn't live in a worse place particularly after the play off semi!) and I need to factor in diesel costs.
Alot will depend on results but more importantly the style of play. The H Express mentions that Bucks has been talking to two wingers and hopefully signing at least one. Surely that means he'll be mixing up our style of play?
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jack
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Post by jack on Jun 20, 2008 14:47:06 GMT
Can't really agree with that. This is the Bspl after all. I don't honestly think the style of play matters so much as the need to be up at the top of the table and challenging for the title.
I don't remember anyone complaining too much when we were hammering everybody before Xmas.
I think the problem will come if we off the pace, then I really think crowds willl drop.
We need to right up at the top, Plenty of pressure on Buckle to hit the ground running this season.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 20, 2008 16:42:49 GMT
Well Jack I do agree that being at the top will be important, but can't agree on the style of play. Yes it worked for the first half of the season, but other teams got wise to our only one style and soon learned to defend against it.
I really fail to understand why some feel that because this is the BSP, that we should not expect quality football. Yet the other three teams in the play-offs did just that, played good football on the ground and were able to change their style, when they needed too.
Yes being at the top will help to get those floating fans in, but start losing and only playing hoof ball that would send you to sleep, will do nothing to help persuade them, its worth sticking around, play good football and they might.
I'm sure the club will have looked at how Exeter, Cambridge and Burton, played and will see that playing football, the way its meant to be played, is the way to get results and build up the crowds.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 20, 2008 18:34:20 GMT
This is the Bspl after all. I don't honestly think the style of play matters so much as the need to be up at the top of the table and challenging for the title.  I would agree with you Jack, but not totally disagree with Dave on this. My personal feeling is that the league position is the number one factor in attracting the stay aways, followed by the entertainment they then feel they get once they come along. Whether that is the result, the ball hitting the back of the net regardless of how it got there or the more sophisticated type of football of the passing game will always remain open to conjecture. One thing is I am sure of is that pretty football without results and the subsequent league position results achieve, will NOT bring 'em in...................ask Malcolm Musgrove (if he were here), Mike Green, Don O'Riordon, or Leroy Rosenior. Quite simply, a manager HAS to get results. Neither would I bracket Cambridge United in the Exeter/Burton school of play, I personally thought them to be quite like us as a matter of fact. Interestingly, I recall none other than Ian Atkins remarking (when he was managing Bristol Rovers) that "everyone knew how to beat Leroy's 'classy' side...................just suck 'em in and hit them over the top because Woods and Taylor were so slow on the turn". |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 21, 2008 7:13:06 GMT
Merse there will be 2200 die hards at Plainmoor, who may well only care about the result and one can't argue, that at the end of the day, it is the most important thing.
If the team finds itself at the top of the table, some stay aways will return, simply because the reason they became stay aways, may be because, they simply went through so many disappointments. Now they may sense a promotion season and simply want to be a part of it.
The people I'm really talking about, are the first timers, or those who stopped coming years a go. I can only ask myself, if I was in that group, what would I expect and what I would except.
If I had never been before and got together with a few mates, paid my £15 to get in, got a program and a bite to eat, I would have spent £20+. If all I saw for 89 Min's was hoof-ball, and United grabbing a goal in the 90 min, how would I feel?
On the other hand, I watch a team playing football, passing, moving, creating, who after all that lose by a 90 min goal, then how would I feel? and out of the two types of games and results, what is the one that would make me want to return.
You see I firmly believe that playing the better football, than the other team, is the way to win games. No it won't win every game you play and like it or not football to many is their entertainment.
People go on about the skill level of players in the BSP, as if they can't be expected to reach any decent skill level. What does any footballer need to be able to do? These players are paid professionals, they should be able to trap a ball and bring it under control. Should be able to carry out a pass to a team mate and move into space to receive a pass. Forwards should be able to shoot at the goal, midfielders make tackles and pass to forwards, and defenders, simply defend.
I really do not believe that football is a difficult game, it needs to be played the correct way, with good tactics and pride and passion.
The game that would have made me want to return, was the game were football was played and I felt entertained, believing if that team continued to play good football, they would get their rewards.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 21, 2008 8:07:14 GMT
Merse there will be 2200 die hards at Plainmoor, who may well only care about the result and one can't argue, that at the end of the day, it is the most important thing. If the team finds itself at the top of the table, some stay aways will return, simply because the reason they became stay aways, may be because, they simply went through so many disappointments. Now they may sense a promotion season and simply want to be a part of it. If I had never been before and got together with a few mates, paid my £15 to get in, got a program and a bite to eat, I would have spent £20+. If all I saw for 89 Min's was hoof-ball, and United grabbing a goal in the 90 min, how would I feel? On the other hand, I watch a team playing football, passing, moving, creating, who after all that lose by a 90 min goal, then how would I feel? and out of the two types of games and results, what is the one that would make me want to return. It's a never ending conundrum that differs from one club to another. At Newcastle they've not won a top league title in living memory, yet still they pack the place out and the clamour is always for good football. But they are the exception rather than the rule. The million dollar question for Torquay folk is whether those influenced by league position out number those influenced by entertainment value and the finer points of the game. In my opinion, the answer lays in the former; but obviously in your opinion it lays in the latter. That doesn't mean to say I prefer more pragmatic football (I love to be entertained by pass and move as much as you - as long as it has a focus on getting the ball into the box and not overly focusing on possession to the detriment of all else) , just that I feel I understand the reasons for Buckle utilising it. The only sure fire solution is to play outstanding football that attains top position and that is what Aldershot and to an extent Exeter did last season. Burton played some really good stuff but failed to hold down a place at the top. The characteristics and demographics of all three of those clubs are quite different, so I guess the answer is that the directorate and management of any given club really need to know their onions so that they endeavour to produce the right product for their particular customer. |
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Post by crooky on Jun 21, 2008 10:37:46 GMT
I can also see the argument for both sides. Speaking on a personal note I would be more inclined to travel if they were playing attractive football. Let's be honest some of the football we played last season was absolutely dire.
Whilst I except it is unrealistic to expect our players at BSP level to play with the quality of a Man Utd or an Arsenal, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect them to play a passing game and be able to put more than 2 passes together.
IMO the way we played last season just abouts sums up why the English game appears so far behind in technique compared to the other major footballing countries. In short I believe coaches who deploy those sort of tactics should have no place in football.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 21, 2008 11:03:01 GMT
I believe coaches who deploy those sort of tactics should have no place in football. Surely the greatest coaches can make a silk purse out of a pig's ear, whilst the worst coaches a pig's ear out of a silk purse. The greatest example we had at Plainmoor of that was Leroy Rosenior, who achieved the former with Roy McFarland's squad but the latter out of his own! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 21, 2008 11:22:18 GMT
I believe coaches who deploy those sort of tactics should have no place in football. Surely the greatest coaches can make a silk purse out of a pig's ear, whilst the worst coaches a pig's ear out of a silk purse. The greatest example we had at Plainmoor of that was Leroy Rosenior, who achieved the former with Roy McFarland's squad but the latter out of his own! Dear old Merse has been able to get two pet hate names in his posts over the last few days ;D ;D Yes Leroy took over McFarland's squad, but he was the one who turned them into a good footballing side, that won promotion. Then he started the next season without the best player D.Graham and our team then in the second division, was a very much weaker team. Losing both Russell and Fouler also further wakened the team. Moving to Bristol played a big part as well, but you should not forget, Leroy had little or no support, that Buckle now enjoys. Little or no money that Buckle now enjoys, so really we should now have a team full of footballers. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 21, 2008 11:33:39 GMT
Dear old Merse has been able to get two pet hate names in his posts over the last few days ;D ;D Please get this straight and then leave it.................I rated Rosenior as a coach but thought he was a hopeless manager of his resources. therefore I would describe him as a good coach but a poor manager. Agree, working under Alex Rowe is a cinch after the nightmare of working under Bateson, but there are plenty of nightmare regimes running clubs in the game and applicants are well aware of this when applying for jobs. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 21, 2008 17:37:42 GMT
Dave.............someone told me your Ant was a more than half decent striker, so perhaps you could ask him this for me: As a striker, would he prefer (a) a quick no frills service down the channels (b) a more intricate but less pacy service with crosses cut back from the bye line or (c) balls hit "over the top" of his marker so that he can get in behind them? You see, I would say that any coach in devising a pattern of play needs to consult the guys who are selected to put the ball in the net for their preference before putting any hard and fast parameters in place as in my humble opinion the whole object of constructing a move in football is to score a goal. Of course the necessity of conceding little or none also has to be borne in mind, and to achieve that, shape; balance and discipline in marking need to be instilled into a team as well. It's indeed many many years since I played as a striker (I'd lost my speed over the first five yards before I was out of my teens!) but in those far off days all I wanted was a no frills, well judged ball into the channels giving me the chance to have a pop from the position of maximum opportunity at the earliest opportunity. So woe betide any "Fancy Dan" who wanted to put his foot on the ball and take that extra touch as it would more often or not lead to my running offside, and I always tried to remember that as my pace diminished and I dropped back into midfield and later defence when it was my job to play a part in providing that service. Had I been 6'2" rather than 5'7" I would most likely have been demanding the ball pulled back from the bye line for obvious reasons; and had I been lightening quick, the ball over the top would have been my preferred option. Now that might well have been described as "Hoof Ball", but if that is what a team's nominated striker prefers; then that (in my opinion) is what should be served up.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 21, 2008 18:08:38 GMT
Well Merse he is in London as I write, but can't tell you were as I don't know,  ;)so you won't be able to ask him yourself. Yes he has always been a good striker and was always top goal scorer no matter what club he played for. Not one to score many with his head, I would say a lot of his goals he made himself, but many more were good through balls played to him. He did have pace, so it was always a help to him. He also gave 110% to every game he played. Sure when he is back he will add his own view. I miss watching him, but as some felt they could expect favours he decided to stop playing, so that no one could start to say anything was fixed, if you know what I mean. One point I would agree with you on, is that a manager need to play to the players strength, something that was never done for Mr A. Williams, who was never given the service his type of game needed. That has to be down simply to the manager, who has set the team to play a style, simply not suited to his players. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 21, 2008 18:26:47 GMT
One point I would agree with you on, is that a manager need to play to the players strength, something that was never done for Mr A. Williams, who was never given the service his type of game needed. That has to be down simply to the manager, who has set the team to play a style, simply not suited to his players. I used to speak to Eiffion a fair bit during his time with us and he was far too polite and possessed too much integrity to be openly critical of individuals, but I do recall him saying that he received a much better service during his time at Barry Town than he ever did at Plainmoor; and he did say that was because the players at his former club had a much better awareness of a striker's needs. It used to do my head in that his team mate Chris Brandon was such a favourite of the fans when I reckoned him to be a bit of a "Show Pony" who too often over indulged on the ball and thus totally messed Eiffion up in the way that I described in my previous post. I can remember Big Mike Lee (Colin's "little" brother) taking hold of someone in the Liverton dressing room over just that very thing ;D |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 23, 2008 16:40:17 GMT
Dave.............someone told me your Ant was a more than half decent striker, so perhaps you could ask him this for me: As a striker, would he prefer (a) a quick no frills service down the channels (b) a more intricate but less pacy service with crosses cut back from the bye line or (c) balls hit "over the top" of his marker so that he can get in behind them? You see, I would say that any coach in devising a pattern of play needs to consult the guys who are selected to put the ball in the net for their preference before putting any hard and fast parameters in place as in my humble opinion the whole object of constructing a move in football is to score a goal. Of course the necessity of conceding little or none also has to be borne in mind, and to achieve that, shape; balance and discipline in marking need to be instilled into a team as well. It's indeed many many years since I played as a striker (I'd lost my speed over the first five yards before I was out of my teens!) but in those far off days all I wanted was a no frills, well judged ball into the channels giving me the chance to have a pop from the position of maximum opportunity at the earliest opportunity. So woe betide any "Fancy Dan" who wanted to put his foot on the ball and take that extra touch as it would more often or not lead to my running offside, and I always tried to remember that as my pace diminished and I dropped back into midfield and later defence when it was my job to play a part in providing that service. Had I been 6'2" rather than 5'7" I would most likely have been demanding the ball pulled back from the bye line for obvious reasons; and had I been lightening quick, the ball over the top would have been my preferred option. Now that might well have been described as "Hoof Ball", [glow=yellow,2,300]but if that is what a team's nominated striker prefers; then that (in my opinion) is what should be served up.[/[/glow]quote] Merse why did we score so many goals in the first half of the season? Was it not because we played with wingers, who put crosses into the box, for the likes of Sills to head in. Playing a long hoof ball up to him and straight down the middle, tell me what is he expected to do with the ball. The best is a flick on hoping someone has tried to run onto it. I really can't believe that Sills would have asked for that type of service. |
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I would agree with you Jack, but not totally disagree with Dave on this. 
;)so you won't be able to ask him yourself. Yes he has always been a good striker and was always top goal scorer no matter what club he played for.