What Future For UKIP ?

While the UKIP debate rages here at TFF, last night I noticed that none other than Harry Phibbs (no doubt inspired by this very thread) has turned his attention to this exact subject.

Harry concludes that UKIP is doomed, and does make the point that a few prominent 'kippers' will be seeing some income streams dry up. The Brexit win itself is all very well, but .......





link - Why UKIP Is Doomed



Perhaps Nigel Farage took UKIP to it's pinnacle of achievement with the Brexit win, and we'll now witness the slow descent as the Party's relevance comes more and more under the spotlight ?  A fascinating question, but not quite as fascinating as discussing the relevance of TUOSC, so I fear even UKIP might have to take a back seat for a short while as the new kid on the block exercises our minds 

I knew very little about the history of the SNP, pete, and you informing us how they've moved from one end of the political spectrum to the other, does confirm that nothing need be set in stone.

Mind you, a considerable shift in  position such as that, was achieved over a lengthy time period. Although, if we think about the Labour Party and what it stood for when Michael Foot stepped down in 1983 and compare it, 20 years later to the 2003 Labour Party, when it had undergone almost 10 years of Blairite 'modernisation' it was almost unrecognisable, and not only due to swapping donkey jackets for sharp suits.

And so, as you suggest, it's not unthinkable for UKIP to change some of it's colours, and go in for a bit of repositioning. Is the left of centre really wide open ? Could a centre left anti immigration party exist...and do well ?  Perhaps they do already, or soon will do in parts of mainland Europe if the tide of migrants isn't stemmed, and a right wing solution is still considered a bit frightening.

When Cameron moved the Tories way to the left, bringing in legislation on Gay marriage, minimum wage, strongly pro E.U, big society, and making no serious attempt to reduce the massive immigrant influx, Ed Miliband's alternative of another half inch to the left of that was hardly worth the bother, as the electorate indicated. With Faron's  Liberals in the same ball park, I'm wondering if Left of Centre isn't actually already overcrowded these days....and Labour's response has been to move farther out to differentiate itself. Certainly a number of Cameron's measures were more to the left than any past Labour Government had dared introduce, and given another 12 months or so, he was gearing up for compulsory women Directors.

My guess is that the non Corbynite Labour members will break away and join with the LibDems, to tie up the left of centre/social democrat ground long before UKIP could pitch their tent there.

What a thorny subject the welfare state/NHS is. It's perfect for attacking the other side for not doing enough, but would anyone seriously intend to do more themselves...other than Jeremy Corbyn who will have money for everything, schools, NHS, infrastructure, minimum wage increases, foreign aid....Labour's money tree with accompanying 25% inflation really would shake Britain to it's roots. A welfare state/ well funded NHS with the current record numbers of immigrants who haven't paid into the system can't work..and lurches closer towards total breakdown by the day. Add to that the increasing elderly population, living longer, and the vast array of new drugs and treatments they would want. At the same time there's barely a kid who doesn't go to University, so does anyone actually start paying taxes until they're about 24 ?

We'd have to tax the poor sods who were working to within an inch of their lives if we were serious about a proper NHS or welfare state. The French made a few tentative steps in that direction, and the middle class just moved to London rather than stay and hand over most of their income to the Government in tax. And so much easier for middle class Brits to up sticks, with English rapidly becoming a universal language. Paying for a strong NHS welfare state, would be a money sponge bringing our economy to it's knees, as those economies without a welfare state to support and finance would have their goods for sale at a fraction of the cost of anything we could produce.

While a welfare state/NHS could work in the 1950's with a relatively static population contributing throughout their lifetime, we were relatively insulated,with no concerns about competing with shiploads of cheap imports or 50,000 syrians arriving in town wanting to be housed at our expense. Only Corbyn would be crackers enough to claim a welfare state can be operated in the modern world (actually it can, there's even free housing for everyone in North Korea....but you need to operate as your own separate unit as they do).

Perhaps UKIP will take their cue from Theresa May. If the drift to the left continues, then even more dissaffected Tories and their votes will be available, along with those working class voters who don't like Corbyn's 'soft' stance on immigration. Should May signal a change of direction, and give the Tories a proper right wing feel again, then UKIP might need to find a new banner to stand under.....although I really can't imagine it reading 'The NHS is safe in our hands !'

Enlightening it certainly was, and the U.S seems to also have a fair way to go before they've got a healthcare system everyone is happy with. The whole Obamacare saga was something few of us fully understood over here in Britain. Did the Constitution, Bill of Rights or whatever it is you have over there, really give powers to a President, such that he could order everyone to buy a certain product ? Then we also saw him on our TV sets assuring everyone 'If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan', and people couldn't see how that would be so under Obamacare.

One massive difference between Britain and the U.S seems to be the amount of health insurance. Florida will correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Government brought this about by making the part of your wages put into Health Insurance tax free, whereas if you took the cash you'd be taxed on it. There also used to be restrictions on competition limiting which Insurance companies could compete in which State.

So get rid of the Insurance, that would be a big first step. If you can earn £100 for 10 minutes as a Doctor, about three quarters of college kids must be intending to train as Doctors. There'll be an overload, just as there will be with Physios if the going rate is $150 a session....competition will bring the price down and there'll soon be doctors charging only £70 an hour. We've got the evidence over here in Britain. You can't get insurance to cover breast implants or most cosmetic surgeries, the same with laser eye surgery which is done by Private companies, the quality keeps getting better and the cost keeps coming down. No Government + no insurance = falling prices.


floridagull

  Make no mistake, the drug and insurance companies are so untouchable now that the US is too far down the road of private health care for there ever to be a universally available free health service.Drug companies have limitless funds to ensure they stay in their all-powerful positions.

I don't see any U.S TV, although, around about the turn of the decade I did used to watch Peter Schiff's daily podcasts from Connecticut .
He used to predict the exact opposite; that Obamacare would be such a money loser for the Insurance companies that they'd pull out, and that a socialised medicine system would then have to be introduced......which he claims was Obama's actual plan all along.

Quite what the details of the actual Obamacare ended up being, compared to what Peter Schiff was foreseeing in late 2009, I'm not sure. This might be of passing interest to Floridagull...or it might not





However, fast forwarding 7 years to last month, and it's news such as America's third largest health care Insurance company, saying 'no more' to taking the financial hit for Obamacare.......






........that makes Peter all the more confident that his predictions back in 2009 are coming true.







No wonder Floridagull, must be pinning his hopes on President Trump rolling back these big Government plans that are doomed to failure, and instead to set the market free, in the good ol' American way, letting the costs tumble for everyone.

Diane James packs it in after 18 days. Steven Woolfe early odds on favourite to get his papers in on time and attack the Labour northern heartlands.

Turns out after years of shouting about UK parliamentary sovereignty they're not such big fans of it after all. Bloody whingers. Have they collapsed yet?

Glad you spotted the reference. Knew you would, though., alpine. It's an irony I have drawn a bit of amusement from in recent weeks. Sadly, the whole thing is destined to rumble on for ages. Most of us voters were unaware of the vagaries of the Article 50 negotiating process when voting. As well as a hell of a lot more our political classes fed us or chose to omit with their own careers being much further up the agenda than our fate.