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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 17:10:46 GMT
I've been reading elsewhere about many Cardiff City supporters remaining unhappy about the change of colours from blue to red. This begged the question: how would we feel about such a drastic colour change? Then somebody remembered that we made such a change in 1954. How, precisely, was that greeted? That's an interesting question. We've certainly discussed the colour change before but I'm not sure if we've been able to explore how people felt about it. Not unless I've missed something.
To put it into context, the Historical Kits website records that we'd been playing in black-and-white at least since the merger of 1921. In this sense it was all the professionalised Torquay United Mark 2 had ever known. There looks to have been a good dose of stripes - à la Newcastle United - up until 1934; then twenty years (either side of the war) in plain white shirts and black shorts. You'd have thought there would have been some grumblings when the change was made.
But maybe the black-and-white was just too dull and ordinary for people's liking? Perhaps some fans felt it had not been the same since the "old stripes" had been ditched. Yet, had those been retained, what price Torquay United not changing them at a time when Newcastle United actually won things? In fact, why didn't we bring them back just there and then to latch on to the glamour of the mighty Magpies? If that had happened it's possible that we too would have been the Magpies for ever more. With two magpie mascots of course. Just like Newcastle. Just like Notts County.
I can't quite remember the boardroom dynamics of the time but, maybe, the change of colours was part of a "new era" strategy devised by the board. Or may it have been at the request of an Eric Webber confidently asserting himself as a bright young manager? Perhaps too, with clothing rationing safely finished, the country was starting to show more of an interest in how it dressed. Yellow-and-blue (or whatever subtle variation) might have fitted the mood of the crossover period between the ending of austerity and the start of the New Elizabethan era. Better than that dowdy old black-and-white nonsense.
There's also the business of the yellow representing the sand; blue the sea. Or am I just dreaming that? I'm sure I've heard this said over the years and - should that case have been argued in 1954 - it may have had a resonance in a seaside resort which was far more self-confident than it appears to be now. Indeed, was it a suggestion from the borough publicity manager down on the harbourside?
None of this answers the question about the response. We had far greater numbers of regular punters in those days but I sense it was accepted without much dissent. And, in the medium-term, it may have helped that the club's playing fortunes immediately improved from 13th to 8th to 5th to 2nd. But I guess it's now almost impossible to discover how fans felt about the new colours. The club programme probably didn't record dissent; the newspapers may only have refelected it by publishing letters. Consequently we're probably now reliant on folk memory.
Yet I certainly think a colour change would be more emotive now. Yellow-and-blue (and variations) is still relatively unusual and it's now been fifty-nine years since the change which means few people remember otherwise. It is broadly speaking, various times in the 1970s and 1980s aside, all we've ever known.
Now here's a funny thing. I always think of yellow-and-blue - or gold-and-blue - but perhaps the emphasis is purely on a "yellow" identity these days?
Well, you would think so by reading the club'a website and programme. Although the club switches between "Torquay", "Gulls" and "Yellow(s)", I sense the last of these three is gaining pre-eminence. It seems to be forever "Yellow this" or "Yellow that". Now I'm not sure if this is a deliberate strategy or purely accidental. And, as we appear to be incapable of singing much other than "Yellow Army" or "Cone on you Yellows!", you could argue this is a case of listening to the fans.
But I'm not convinced of the overuse of the term "Yellow". It works as part of chants but not in print or in normal speech. Nor have I ever been fully won over by "Gulls". We may use "gull" to identify ourselves online but we're not exactly a community or diaspora of seagull lovers. When I received a "Good win 4 Gulls" text on Saturday I reckon it would have been fairly unlikely to have come from a Torquay supporter. It's time I feel to make a bid to reclaim the word "UNITED" when talking about our team. After all we are - 1910-21 hiatus aside - one of the first Uniteds.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 18:16:28 GMT
Whisper it softly but a perusal of HFK suggests to us that TUFC just ripped off Leeds United's kit of the early fifties, only with especially silky shirts which would have looked good under those primitive floodlights.
Certainly, looking at the pictures in the Complete History 1899-1999, there is something nice and simple about the white and black compared to the "new" look but as far as most of us are aware Torquay's colours have always, in our lifetimes, been yellow and blue, which I learned from collecting Shoot! league ladders in the 1960s. The Torquay cardboard tab was blue with yellow writing on it, which set it apart from all the blue and white, red and white and black and white ones.
Leeds United were blue and yellow to match the colours of the Rugby League club, but switched to all white a few years before yellow and blue became fashionable as an away strip for about half the teams in the League. Everton, Southampton, Chelsea, West Brom, Man United, Arsenal, Crystal Palace and Tottenham were all First Division teams who used yellow tops and blue shorts as their change kits in the sixties and seventies. This was why I bought Subbuteo team number 47, because they could always be used as a generic away kit.
I recall the shock of opening my programme one day at Saltergate and the Football League Review inside had a photo of Torquay in all blue with yellow socks. That seemed to be all wrong, and yet of course that was the season when United could and probably should have made it into Division Two. With the team doing so well I doubt that many fans cared what colour combination they wore, but the yellow tops were back the following year.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 18:55:43 GMT
Whisper it softly but a perusal of HFK suggests to us that TUFC just ripped off Leeds United's kit of the early fifties, only with especially silky shirts which would have looked good under those primitive floodlights. Which would be ironic given we gave Leeds a reet good stuffing in the FA Cup in 1954/55. I don't remember any great debate about the 1967/68 strip. It was after all, as Felix intimates, such a good season. And, being in the first year of secondary school, I was rather excited by change. It was a time that Torquay United was trying all manner of new things. That was probably true of the wider game in England too. In other areas of cultural activity the Swinging Sixties occurred earlier in the decade; for football it was all happening after 1966. I've a sneaky feeling that 1967/68 was when we suddenly became "The Gulls". I've never been sure how that happened; it just seemed to be an invention. Maybe somebody's bright idea? I just remember there being so much goodwill that people went along with the whole show. But, don't forget, that's the memory of a twelve-year-old. Others may have been more begrudging.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 19:35:52 GMT
Which would be ironic given we gave Leeds a reet good stuffing in the FA Cup in 1954/55.
Indeed, Nick, an occasion on which Torquay played in white and black, and Leeds in red shirts and white shorts, which would go down pretty badly with their fans nowadays.
What was notable, colour-wise, about the 1977/78 season down in Devon?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 20:16:53 GMT
What was notable, colour-wise, about the 1977/78 season down in Devon? The whiteness of the kits. Either fashion, the influence of Leeds (then starting to wane) or a job lot of cheap kit.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Aug 27, 2013 20:52:46 GMT
This begged the question: how would we feel about such a drastic colour change? Then somebody remembered that we made such a change in 1954. How, precisely, was that greeted? That's an interesting question. We've certainly discussed the colour change before but I'm not sure if we've been able to explore how people felt about it. Not unless I've missed something. A fascinating question with the answer starting to be lost in the mists of time with not too many around to remember and even one or two coming forward may not be representative of opinion then whether it be a mass indifference or something strongly objected against. To some extent, forums such as this are a good resource to look back on both for the present and future although they may not be entirely representative of overall opinion as a flick through the comment sections of various newspaper sites will confirm with the rise of the internet troll. Still Dave chose his timing well in establishing this site with our return to the football league well documented on here and as you will recall, a season that the manager almost lost his job well before Christmas, something that a future historian may be surprised at, particularly the depth of feeling from fans with the benefit of his or her hindsight. As for a colour change, I think we do feel more strongly about it these days as a lot of us will wear the duplicate shirt and personally associate with the brand and fashion sense of the team's colours hence why the club held a poll on this season's strip!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 21:25:59 GMT
Phipsy tells me (and he should know because he was there) that no-one really batted an eyelid at Torquay United's big colour change of 1954. Colour switches were probably more frequent in those days and fans less finicky. Meanwhile, this is an account from a Leeds website of the famous cup tie between the two teams in the 54/55 season. Don Mills had previously played for Leeds and this is his biography from a Tyke perspective: Mills: Donald (Don)
1951-1952 (Player Details)
Inside Forward
Born: Bramley, Nr Rotherham: 17-08-1928
Debut: v Rotherham United (a): 29-09-1951
5’10” 10st 5lb (1957)
Mills had a lengthy League career which included fifteen months at Leeds. After starting with his local club Maltby Main, he was only seventeen when he turned professional with Queens Park Rangers in October 1945, being signed by Dave Mangnall, the former Leeds player. He had scored six goals in forty-five League appearances for Rangers when he spent four months on loan with Torquay United, beginning in March 1949, and proved so popular that the fans tried to buy him, after he had scored thirteen goals in thirty-four appearances at Plainmoor.
Eventually Cardiff City bought him for £12,500 in February 1951 after he had added another three goals and thirty-one League appearances in his second spell at Loftus Road. He did not fit in at Cardiff City and only made one appearance without scoring for the Welsh club. In September1951 he joined Leeds for £12,000 and he met with varying success, figuring regularly at inside forward partnering Ray Iggleden, and on the scoresheet, with some memorable strikes, but the arrival of Albert Nightingale saw him as the third of three players for the two inside forward berths.
Torquay finally signed him in December 1952 and he stayed at Plainmoor for twenty years, retiring as a player in 1962. He is generally regarded as Torquay’s greatest-ever player and remained as a coach and scout at Plainmoor until the 1970’s. He was officially elected as the "Greatest Player ever to play for Torquay United" in the Football League Hall of Fame in June 2007. He did spearhead Torquay in 1954-55, much to Leeds United’s chagrin. The 1954/55 season saw a change of colours for Torquay, from the old black and white to a new gold and blue. It also saw Torquay's greatest ever FA Cup moment. After defeating Cambridge United 4-0 at home and Blyth Spartans 1-3 away, Torquay were drawn against Leeds United in the third round. Nobody expected the team to go to Elland Road and get any kind of favourable result, so when they managed a 2-2 draw in Yorkshire, the scene was set for over 11,000 fans to crowd into Plainmoor on a Wednesday afternoon, January 12. The teams lined up: Torquay United: Jefferies; J.V. Smith, H. Smith; Lewis, Webber, Norman; Shaw, Collins, Dobbie, Mills and J.T. Smith. Leeds United: Wood; Dunn, Hair; Ripley, Marsden, Kerfoot; Williams, Nightingale, Charles, Brook and McCall. Incredibly, with goals from Sammy Collins, Harold Dobbie, Ronnie Shaw and captain Don Mills, playing against his old club, Torquay ran out 4-0 winners, to set up a fourth round clash with Huddersfield Town.
The Torquay United versus Huddersfield Town Fourth Round FA Cup game at Plainmoor will always live on in the memory of those who attended the match on the 29th January 1955. Just how 21,908 people managed to fit into the ground is a mystery. Although Torquay lost 0-1 to the then Division One club, the day is still one of the most talked about events in Torquay United's history, and the record crowd is never likely to be beaten.
He was still inspirational as he was a leading light in Torquay’s promotion to the Third Division in 1959-60. He was still there in 1961-62 when they were relegated and he finally hung up his boots. In his second and longest spell with the club he made three hundred and eight League appearances and scored sixty-eight goals. He later became a traffic warden in Torquay and died in February 1994.
Appearances
Goals
League 34 9 F.A. Cup 3 1
Taken from: www.ozwhitelufc.net.au/players_profiles/m/MillsD.php
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 21:28:19 GMT
What was notable, colour-wise, about the 1977/78 season down in Devon? The whiteness of the kits. Either fashion, the influence of Leeds (then starting to wane) or a job lot of cheap kit. That's right. Argyle, City and United all played in white shirts that season, which seems wrong, wrong and wrong.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Aug 27, 2013 21:35:14 GMT
When comparing to Cardiff, there's an obvious difference - Torquay had been playing in black and white for 33 years, Cardiff had been playing in blue for 104. But also there's the context of the day. Dare I say it without hard evidence, but I get the feeling a team's colour mattered less in the pre-branding days of 1954 than it does today
Plus Cardiff's sporting colours as a whole have been blue for generations, to the point where the rugby team are the Blues. The switch away from that was cynical and motivated by the self-interest of the owner. That's not quite the feeling I get with our colour change - maybe it was about "selling" the club to the area with the goal of making a bit more money, but it wasn't quite as pie-in-the-sky as the idea that Asian people will buy more red shirts than blue shirts, and I'm sure the people making the decisions had Torquay United's best interests at heart - Vincent Tan has only Vincent Tan's interests at heart
The situation at Cardiff is one I've followed closely and I know several people who have walked away completely. There's more to it than just the colour change. This is the heart and soul of the club being torn out for the sake of making money, in more ways than just changing the colour of the shirts and the resulting propaganda campaign to try and brush off the complaints. I've heard that despite their success last year, the atmosphere at the CCS was actually generally quite dull and attendances weren't as strong as they should have been - we may never get to know the extent of this because they're guaranteed to get strong attendances this year due to the inevitable glory-hunting
Those watching Cardiff City today have been bought off - I find this doublethink of referring to them as "Bluebirds" to be absurd and it typifies the way in which the whole transition has been completely ignored by those attending in favour of big spending and success
I can't prove this for certain but I have a feeling it's because of gentrification, something which had been ongoing before Tan arrived. Cardiff has traditionally been a club for working class people from Cardiff and the valleys radiating away from it, but their increasing success over the last decade, combined with the construction of the new stadium and resulting clampdown on the troublesome hardcore fans, has made it very attractive to the middle class families in the Cardiff suburbs and the Vale of Glamorgan, along with those in the Valleys who never bothered with them while they were struggling in the fourth tier. A similar process is happening with the national rugby team - since Wales starting winning Six Nations titles on a regular basis, the working class support has begun to be edged out by the South Welsh middle class because a winning team is a fashionable team
At Torquay, you could never have a gentrification process because it always has been more of a middle class club
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 22:03:17 GMT
At Torquay, you could never have a gentrification process because it always has been more of a middle class club
Don't know about that, James.
Certainly, the area to the immediate North and South of the ground is much more upmarket than we would normally find in the Football League but the TUFC fans themselves seem pretty grounded and working class to me. As a newcomer to Plainmoor I expected something different and found it but I don't think it's class-orientated so much as Torquay United always having been, comparatively, a "little" club and the fans consequently not having the inflated and unrealistic expectations of some of their rivals.
In addition, following the local League team is more of a niche activity in Torquay than in many other towns where, frankly, there's little else to get over-excited about. In the North, going to the match was traditionally a break from manual labour in foundries, mills and coal mines and the local clubs gained big followings as a result. Burnley and Sunderland are good examples of football towns, where just about everyone takes an interest in their club. Torquay has a more transient population and less of an industrial background, that's all.
Any road, no need to worry about Torquay United being thought of as middle class. Sheffield Gulls are here to make sure that doesn't happen!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 21:45:21 GMT
On the matter of the Gulls nickname, Alan Mer son has come up with the name of John Hudson as the man behind the idea. Hudson was a club director who was involved in a squash club at Barton Hall. At Plainmoor the new Gulls Shop was very much his baby.
And my memory is of that late 1960s club shop being the start of it all. The Gulls logo seemed to be on most of the items it sold and, indeed, I've still got a keyring - complete with an encased pre-decimal penny - from that period. There was also a short-lived magazine known as the "Gulls Cry".
As for the supporters adopting the new nickname for their own use, I think they were rather stand-offish at first. It also took a while for the club to move away from the traditional Borough of Torquay badge to one based on the Gulls design. Ultimately this was done in stages.
Then we had Dave Webb and palm trees. Maybe it was when the dust had settled on that nonsense that the Gulls really became more common currency.
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Aug 28, 2013 22:05:32 GMT
I can imagine it being only relatively recently that it became virtually compulsory for a football club to have a nickname. Obviously some are well-established but others seem like fairly recent coinages - I'm guessing at least some of the clubs that call themselves something as underwhelming as "The U's" only adopted that as an official nickname within the last few decades
According to Vincent Tan, the official nickname of Cardiff is now the Red Dragons
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 28, 2013 23:04:09 GMT
John Lovis (page 36 of the book):
United had a different strip too; the black and white was replaced by blue and gold shirts and socks with black shorts.
The idea came from Eric Webber who thought the blue and gold representative of the town's status as a top holiday resort. The change of strip marked the end of the club's "magpie" nickname, and it was not until the late sixties that a new one - the "Gulls" - was decided upon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 9:48:32 GMT
I can imagine it being only relatively recently that it became virtually compulsory for a football club to have a nickname. Obviously some are well-established but others seem like fairly recent coinages - I'm guessing at least some of the clubs that call themselves something as underwhelming as "The U's" only adopted that as an official nickname within the last few decades According to Vincent Tan, the official nickname of Cardiff is now the Red Dragons The Us, the Rs, the Bs.....that's always seemed something of a London and south eastern thing. A friend of mine, not versed in such matters, once went to an Oxford game and texted "1-0 to the Ewes". Ewes, as we were taught at school, are female oxon. And what of Stockport County being known as the Hatters? I was reassured recently when Felix said this was an new one on him. Me too. But it's there in black-and-white for all to see in R.C.Churchill's 1958 book about the Football League and its' clubs: "popularly known as the Hatters (as is Luton Town)".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 12:26:28 GMT
Can someone have an official nickname? The whole point of a nickname is that it is unofficial; a pet name given by your friends or a rude one imposed on you by the school bully.
In Sheffield both United and Wednesday are nicknamed the Pigs by fans of the other team. History has it that Wednesday were once known as the Blades but I doubt that many of their supporters would believe it.
What became of the Peacocks, the Biscuitmen, the Pensioners, the Lambs and the Glaziers? All were nicknames which their clubs decided they didn't want any more and fell by the wayside, but well done to West Brom. Marketing men tried their best to turn them into Throstles but the fans stuck with Baggies, and they won the day.
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